Courtroom or Boardroom? Why Transactional Lawyers Shape the Biggest Deals.

josh W: Attorney kind of going through his story, his journey, and maybe some, some paths that, you know, are an aspiration for some attorneys, and he might show and share some of his, uh, story about maybe that, why that wasn't a, the, the right fit for him and, and, and how to make a, a career transition. Right. So, CJ, really excited to have, have you on the show.

Jude spoke super highly of you and, um, you're the first one today. So, man, welcome to the show. 

CJ Miller: Thank you. I certainly appreciate the invitation to be here and looking forward to sharing a little bit about me, about my journey and kind of what it means to be a transactional lawyer. 

josh W: Yeah. Okay. So. What is a transactional, you know, lawyer, let's start there.

CJ Miller: Sure. And you know, usually when I would tell people when I was growing up or an undergrad, you know, I'm going to law school, the question was always, oh, okay, so when are we gonna see you on a billboard? When are we gonna be hearing about your court stories? And I said, oh, you know, that's just, that's not me.

I have always wanted to be a transactional lawyer. And like you said, that's usually not the first place people go whenever you say you're interested in law. So what I like to tell people is that when you're a transactional attorney, usually at the end of the day, everybody leaves happy. People are buying a business, selling a business, getting a loan, getting money to start their next venture.

Usually at the end of the day, people are doing something to fulfill a goal. And so I like to think of myself as bringing people together to make a deal, bringing people together to put. Into action, a plan, the next steps, how they wanna live their life. And so I don't work in the courtroom. I usually always work, uh, in the boardroom, in the office, bringing people together, writing contracts, and making sure things are done in a way to try to minimize or hopefully eliminate any kind of litigation or disagreements in the future.

josh W: Man. Super cool. Cj, we're gonna expand on the courtroom versus boardroom, kind of like that. Mm-hmm. Where the, where the playing field is for different, you know, attorneys mm-hmm. And maybe why you chose this over that. But if we were to, you know, have a conversation with you when you were much younger. Did you always want to be an attorney and why?

CJ Miller: Uh, so actually I didn't, uh, whenever I was growing up I was really interested in a few different things, uh, principally architecture and meteorology. Uh, the weather is still a huge hobby of mine and I love to follow it and design to, I consider just a hobby. But I quickly realized that meteorology and architecture require a lot of math, a lot of science, and the thought of doing calculus and physics in college and beyond just sounded awful.

And so I said, well, that might seem like better hobbies. And so I've always enjoyed reading. I've always enjoyed writing critical thinking and law kind of seemed like a good natural fit and progression for that. And so, explored it a little bit and probably by the time I was around high school age, I kinda had settled on law 

josh W: really.

So by high school. That's so interesting. By high school age, I settled on what I want to do with my life. I think it was like for me, I was in my thirties before, maybe even today. I settled on what I want to do with my life. How did you, how do you think you knew so early on what you wanted to do with your life?

CJ Miller: So I'm an only child and have a pretty close relationship with my parents. Uh, they were a little bit older when I was born, and so just have kind of a special relationship and my dad always likes to say that, like George Bailey in a wonderful Life. I was born old and so I guess I really didn't think about until you mentioned, yeah, I guess, you know, when I was 15 or 16 high school age, I kind of settled on what I wanted and, and it was maybe not quite as nuanced as that.

I knew I wanted to do law, but had you asked me gun to my head at 16 years old, you know, what type of law. I don't even think I would've been able to tell you. I know what transactional law is, uh, but as I explored more, I grew up in a small business environment. My parents have a small janitorial supply, air freshener, chemical type business locally, and I grew up in that, saw all aspects of that, worked in the warehouse, worked in making stuff, boxing stuff, worked in a hot, humid warehouse in South Louisiana summers.

But I really saw the business aspect and really enjoyed. That part. And so kind of transactional law is a good marriage of enjoying business, understanding how businesses operate, but really kind of putting the legal teeth and meat on that. 

josh W: Yeah. Describe a moment. So we're, we're in the warehouse packing, right?

And you're, you know, filling the boxes and, and refilling this and doing that. It's hot Louisiana, the south summer. Right. Hot and humid. Hot and humid. And, you know, when was the first time that the, the lawyer in you started to come out? So you're, you're in the family business and, and your, your mom or dad and you, you started questioning maybe how we're doing things or how things are structured.

Mm-hmm. And they're like, man, maybe you should be a lawyer. 

CJ Miller: Right. No, exactly. You know, sometimes I would just kind of ask questions, you know, why do we do something like this? Or why do we plan this way or that way? And I think it's really kind of thinking about the analytical side of operations and where I think a lot of times people.

I don't wanna necessarily say fall short, but where people kind of lose the forest or the trees is forgetting that there's actual people and an actual business operation kind of behind the papers, behind the numbers. And I think that for me, kind of taking that on earlier in my kind of formation growing up, being in my parents' business, starting thinking about those questions and then connecting the dots to what's kind of behind the operations kind of help kind of start that trajectory.

josh W: Yeah. So this might be an assumption and this might lead to a dead end, but you know, I can imagine running a, you know, I grew up in a family business. Mm-hmm. And it was a construction in South Florida, so also hot. 

CJ Miller: Yes. It's very similar. 

josh W: Digging ditches and working with dad and you know, there was this, uh, unspoken.

Thing that I'd be in the family business. Mm-hmm. My dad made a sign, it was a, I can still see it, right. Wilson and Son Construction. Mm-hmm. At the sign at the time he only had one, one son. But, you know, was there any of that thought for you as like, maybe I should stay here, or, man, I've got to go off and pursue my, my, my dream of becoming an attorney?

CJ Miller: So there's definitely a little bit of that being the only child. I think my parents kind of had the thought perhaps that I would want to take over the business. But, you know, I was very blessed and fortunate that parents who also wanted me to kind of explore what I wanted to do and were supportive of what I wanted to do.

So for a long time they were supportive if I wanted to take over the business, but never wanted to hold me back and, you know, were excited for me to kind of pursue what I wanted. So I certainly credit growing up in that business as leading me, I think, to where I am today. And I think. Helping me give a good different, unique perspective to my clients, but something that I kind of took as my own and, and ran from that.

josh W: Yeah. I think what you're describing is a, for me, a like the ideal thing of what I want to do with my family, right? I have three kids, 12, 8, 5, and I love them. My son specifically, not that I love him more, but he, when I ask him, you know, he had a dress up day of what do you wanna be when you grow up? Mm mm-hmm.

And he goes, dad, what do, what do you do? And I'm like, well, I'm an investment banker. He goes, then I wanna be in an, and he couldn't say even the word, but, you know, like, I love the idea of, you know, doing a family business. Mm-hmm. But I think s. That's selfish of me wanting that. But I think more importantly, I want to be more like your parents, where it's like, I want to help my kids become who God called them to be.

Mm-hmm. Or what they want to be like. That was your scenario. Mm-hmm. I'm sure you saw your friends who were, you know, highly encouraged to follow the footsteps of the parents. So now you're in it, it, this segues into this question. Now you're in college. Mm-hmm. And you're amongst your peers and you're like, man, I, this is my passion.

This is my joy. This is where I want to be. Mm-hmm. Compare that to maybe other friends or students that you saw that were in there maybe for the money, maybe for the, they want to be on the billboards, maybe for, uh, their, their parents, just to make parents happy. Did did you experience any of that when you were in law school and you saw other people, your peers?

CJ Miller: It is, you know, and it is kind of obvious sometimes the ones who are there. For those specific reasons. You know, law is, law is very hard. You have to really wanna do it, enjoy it. You have to really be committed if, if you're gonna be a successful attorney. And, you know, it's unfortunate sometimes when people kind of feel like maybe they were pigeonholed into it, we're kind of on a trajectory made by other people wanting to, to send them there.

And it's hard to do law, you know, when, when your heart and your passion's not in it. Uh, usually, you know, I joke with people, you know, law is hard enough and, and it's difficult enough to get through if you really want to do it. And so having kind of that drive, that motivation to be able to be in it. And I say to help people, of course, you know, there's certain types of law, family law, um, public defending, you know, a lot where it really is helping people in a very altruistic type sense.

For me, I still consider what I do, you know, helping people, helping people in their businesses and their real estate ventures. Just being able to navigate a very complex world. And I think being able to do that successfully and in a way that really helps people, starts with having that motivation of wanting to do well and wanting to, you know, be the best type of lawyer you can be.

And you can see that difference starting out early in law school. You know, what motivates people 

josh W: for sure. I'm sure that, you know, not all who apply, get in and not who, not all who get in, get out, right? Mm. They both are very true. Yeah. So kind of talk us through, walk us through, 'cause you know. Walk us through the educational path to becoming a, an attorney like yours.

CJ Miller: Sure. So I was also, again, very fortunate in my undergraduate experience to go to a place that really helped me think analytically, think critically, and ask questions. I, uh, had grown up, you know, here in south Louisiana, wanted to go to a small liberal arts college. So I chose the University of St. Thomas in Houston, small Catholic liberal arts institution, but really prides itself on having a well-rounded curriculum.

I was a part of the honors program there, which a lot of their foundational aspects were on the Great Books program. So we started studying the ancient Greeks, the ancient Hebrews, Israelites through the Romans, through the Middle Ages, the Renaissance, into the early modern period, and. The honors program there really helped me to ask questions, to think through things analytically, connect the dots between different types of curriculum and really understanding the whole picture that, you know, education, different topics don't happen in a silo, but everything is connected.

And so really, I credit kind of that foundational aspect in helping me in law school, law school's, a lot of critical thinking. Building down walls, you know, things don't operate in silos and you really need to think of the whole picture. And so I think I've read articles that said a lot of times the most successful people in law school majored in things like philosophy or English, uh, a lot of the humanities, because you're used to kind of that reading, asking questions, a critical dialogue.

Uh, I kind of took, uh, uh. Two-pronged path in that I had kind of that humanities background, but I was also the stereotypical cliched political science major as well, uh, going into law school. But I think something that gives you a foundation of asking questions of not just accepting, you know, some rote response or being able to kind of regurgitate something on, you know, a multiple choice type test, but really something that causes you to answer things deeply and think through things fully is kind of the best foundation for law school.

And then eventually, you know, being an attorney as well. 

josh W: So finish high school, you, you get your general studies. Mm-hmm. Right. You, you go on, get your associates, your bachelor's. Mm-hmm. And then from there, kind of walk us through after bachelor's, like the, the, the different. Degrees in the tests that you have to do.

CJ Miller: Sure. So, uh, for law school, there, uh, are no kind of prerequisites of, of what you needed to study in undergraduate other than, you know, like most other professional programs. There's the, the lsat, the law school admissions test that, you know, ironically enough has nothing to do with performance in law school.

It kind of tests critical thinking, reading comprehension, logic games is the number one thing that, that people kind of talk about in the lsac, kind of these word word problems, word issues. But the law schools will really look at your LSAT score, your GPA from undergraduate to try to. Number one, whether you'll be accepted, and then number two, what your scholarship and financial aid look like.

But other than that, the lsat your, your undergrad, GPA is the, the big prerequisites for law school. And other than that, they're, they're happy to, to take those who are willing to learn. 

josh W: Cool. So then you go to, to get work on your, your master's and you start working on the program within law. And then, you know, I, I think I saw in your name like JD and all the mm-hmm.

What, what do those things mean? 

CJ Miller: Sure. So, uh, the professional, uh, degree kind of acronym for for law is JD Juris Doctor. Uh, we have a doctorate degree, just like, you know, someone who'd go through professional medical school. Um, and in Louisiana, we, as you, you know, may or may not know. The 49 other states are, are based on the English common law system and Louisiana's private law.

So law of contracts, family law, property law is based on continental Europe civil law. And so at LSU you can have a kind of bimodal degree, that's the jd, your typical juris doctor that you would earn at any law school in the United States. And then there's an optional component called the DCL, the Diploma of Comparative Law.

And so LSU law has an additional component that you can opt in to do that's more hours, more credits, but you learn more about the Louisiana specific system of law and the kind of European continental law, which is called the civil law. 

josh W: And is that the, the route that you took? 

CJ Miller: That is, so I, uh, you know, was in undergrad in Houston, Texas.

Decided I wanted to come back home to Louisiana. And so looked at Louisiana law schools had applied, uh, and, and accepted, uh, at LSU law. And so I, you know, came back to Louisiana, came back to Baton Rouge, and was trying to start deciding, you know, what I want to do, where I want to practice, and wanted to kind of keep my options open for going, say, back to Houston for example, or staying in Louisiana.

So I decided to pursue kind of a dual, you know, mode of study, uh, doing things that were both like common law type classes, but also civil law classes, and wanted to get that DCL component to learn specifically about kind of like Louisiana civil law system. 

josh W: So I did not know this, and I'm sure that there's people in the audience that did not know this too.

Uh, so 49 states. 

CJ Miller: Mm-hmm. 

josh W: Go by the, in the, the JD Continental, like here's our, here's our rules. Mm-hmm. Here's how we approach law Louisiana, one of the only states that, that says we're gonna focus on, or we do this this way. 

CJ Miller: Mm-hmm. 

josh W: Kind of com quickly compare and contrast those two different, you know, modals.

CJ Miller: Sure. And, you know, it's not quite as, quite as daunting maybe as it sounds at at first blush, because of course Louisiana still is, you know, one of the states of the United States. We still do commerce with all the other states. And so there's a lot of similarities, especially as time has gone on, things are more connected.

Things occur across state lines, across country borders. So things like our criminal law, a lot of procedural law is all the same or very similar to the other states. Where things are, are the most different are things like property law, successions. Contracts, family law. And even then, things have gotten a lot closer or at least a lot more analogous, whereas, you know, kind of a number of the largest differences are in terminology.

Uh, and sometimes how we conceptualize things like ownership, things like leases. But we've gotten to a place where we can explain those differences, I think, sufficiently to people in other states. Mm-hmm. Um, for example, whenever we talk about something like use of RT is kind of the, the biggest example that you can kind of give the, the concept of use of ruc is not necessarily known to the 49 other states, uh, but they have a similar construct, kind of called a, a life estate.

And basically it's something that. You have the, the use of an item. You can enjoy the use, you can enjoy kind of the, the fruits or the income of an item, but you're not the owner. And so Louisiana thinks of it as something like called a use of frt coming from the Latin, uh, uses for use and the Latin fructose for fruits or income or, or something enjoyed from an item.

Uh, and that, that concept just kind of evolved slightly differently in continental Europe versus England. Uh, but it's, it's little things like that where we have very similar concepts, but maybe word it differently or, or slightly different conceptions. But you know, I think Louisiana attorneys have done a good job of starting to say, okay, how can we explain this to people in the other states?

josh W: Yeah. Super fascinating. There's, uh, terminology. So, um, you know, when I was studying for my real estate brokerage mm-hmm. Right? Some of the things, and I'm in Florida, so some of the things we had to learn were a lot of. Latin Termino terminology. Mm-hmm. Caveat mTOR. Mm-hmm. Let the buyer beware Or at arm's length.

And then there's other things that we use in terminology that came from England and mm-hmm. And, you know, that you milestones and, you know, property markers and, and, and things. Mm-hmm. Like, so there's a lot of history. You talk about studying the, the, the great books, right? Mm-hmm. What are some things that we might have pulled into common law or law today that was written thousands of years ago that we still practice maybe today and we don't even know it?

Can you think of any examples? 

CJ Miller: Uh, sure. Well, I mean, kind of go back and think, I mean, I think a lot of like warranties kind of just that, you know, if you stand behind something or like you said, buyer beware. I mean, I think that has evolved over thousands of years. I mean, you read some of the ancient Greek and ancient Roman, uh, books and literature and, you know, there's elements of that that exist.

You know, there's, um. A concept, you know, that someone can't sell what they don't own. And I think that's kind of evolved over the thousands of years as well. I think what's kind of most surprising is a lot of the concepts that we have or that's kind of become just second nature, were just ways of life for, for people, you know, thousands of years ago and you know, attorneys are often sometimes rightly accused of overcomplicating things, but really, I mean, we've started on concepts that our ancestors and ancient civilizations have known and put into practice.

We've just kind of dressed that up a little over, over the years. 

josh W: Yeah. If you look at one of the first attorneys, right, Moses? Mm-hmm. He was up on the hill and Right. And he, and he carved out some stuff Right. Or or guy wrote with his finger and then he came down, he says 10 laws. And they're like, we don't want your laws that have got.

And he broke 'em. Right, 

CJ Miller: exactly. And then we had to redo it all over again. 

josh W: Yeah. But then it got complex. Mm-hmm. Right? He started hiring judges. Mm-hmm. And bringing those people in. So like it, why do you think, why do you think there's so much complexity when it comes to law? And then maybe, why do you think there's so much complexity when it comes to the law?

'cause I mean, we had 10 laws. It should have been simple for us to think and follow. But man, we overcomplicated. Why do you think that is? 

CJ Miller: I think it's our human nature that we're always looking to, or maybe I even shouldn't say always, maybe that's an unfair overgeneralization, but I think humans have a tendency to want to, you know, do what's best for them.

And I think, you know, in some instances that's, that's true and you should be looking out to try to better yourself. But we have, you know, that. Also that tendency that goes along with it that we wanna get ahead at the expense of others. Yeah. And I think that's kind of the root of why many laws, both on the criminal side and but also on the civil side have evolved.

Why legal terminology, legal documentation has evolved is trying to put better, you know, guardrails rules in place to be able to allow people to do better, but not necessarily at the unfair expense of others. And I think if you could boil down thousands upon thousands of years of legal development, it's trying to, to make sure people are operating in the marketplace and just in society fairly and in a way that makes society as a whole flourish.

josh W: Yeah, man. So before we go into the, the path of you passed your bar, congratulations right here. Exactly. It's like the greatest, you know, two minute, you know, celebration ever. And then you go back to, okay, now what am I gonna do with this? And everything else 

CJ Miller: is more difficult after that. 

josh W: Right. So before we get into the celebration of that, and, and I want you to take us to the day of that, there's some Latin phrases that, uh, that you probably, uh, have learned over the years.

Uh, you know, one of my mentors who was an attorney, he taught, taught me a few, but one of them was Po Perfectus est. Right. I think it means he's the perfect A-hole. Right. Right. And he was describing, you know, uh, uh, a situation, uh, between him and another prosecutor. But the, uh, what are some of the things that come from maybe Latin in your studies that, you know, we use day to day that we're like, we don't even know that this word or terminology or meaning is really old.

CJ Miller: I am not necessarily sure, especially like in my practice, you know, things have have gone so far, uh, into just the English and the regular speak that I don't necessarily know if I can point to something that seems like, oh, this is a. You know, ancient that Yeah. That we don't necessarily know what comes from.

Um, but I'll have to give that one some thought. 

josh W: Okay, cool. We could come back to that one, but it actually, if there's anybody in the audience who has the origin of wards or, or that studies, I think they call it etymology. 

CJ Miller: I think so, yeah. 

josh W: Okay. Cool. My, I got a heads up from my director. Thanks, Chris. Uh, yeah, if you, if you have some really cool things, especially in the world of deal making, etymology, you know, how we do deals that are maybe based on ancient practices, this is the way we've always done it.

Would love to hear, you could head over to the deal podcast.com. There's a actual microphone in the bottom right hand corner. You could record a note and send it to us. So we get questions, we get topics, we get all sorts of things that come from the audience. Mm-hmm. And then we'll loop 'em into the, the conversation.

So if you do have some unique etymology of words, or the way we've done deals forever, love to hear your story. Maybe we will even like, play it live on the show. Please be appropriate. Let's have some fun. All right. So, uh. Cj talk to us about the day where you knew you passed the, the bar. 

CJ Miller: Sure. So, you know, you take the bar exam in, you can, it's either February or July, but usually, you know, the typical process is you graduate law school in May start studying, you know, like a mat person for two months and you try to remind yourself, you know, the bar exam test minimum competency.

Yeah. Like as long as I can just regurgitate something, hopefully that should be enough. And you know, law school. While there's exams for each class, the the point is to prepare you, you know, to, to be able to take and pass the bar exam. But you're still, you know, a little nervous just 'cause you, you know, this is, everything's basically riding on, on this one test after three years of allot of time and expense and money.

And so, you know, you're preparing for a couple of months, take the bar exam at the end of July, you don't get the results until October. 

josh W: That's ridiculous. 

CJ Miller: So, I mean, there's a long time, and, and Louisiana is most Louisiana's unique again in most of the 50 states in that our bar exam is primarily essay based.

Many states have transitioned to multiple choice. Uh, Louisiana has remained kind of essay, which is kind of good, you know, uh, if you need to BS something, you can do that a lot better in an essay than you can in multiple choice. Yeah. But it takes a little bit longer to to grade, so we don't find out till October.

Uh, I had already started working at that time and, and which is typical, you know, a lot of law firms will assume you have passed the bar, uh, and hire you not as a practicing attorney yet, of course, 'cause you're not licensed. But to at least start working, starting to understand the, the life of the firm, understanding clients.

So I remember, you know, I was working, it was like a Tuesday, hour Wednesday in the middle of the week. I actually had just bought a house here in Lafayette. So I was already in debt for that. I was. Going to the bank that same day to take out a second unsecured loan to kind of help with buying furniture and moving expenses and stuff.

And I thought, you know, of all days to be getting into debt some more. It's the day that I find out whether I passed the bar. You know, I had done well in law school. There shouldn't have been a doubt in my mind, but you never know. I'm kind of a, a pessimist by nature, which is what I tell people, I think makes me a good transactional attorney.

'cause we're always having to assume the worst is gonna happen. So that comes naturally to me. So I'm thinking, okay, what if I don't pass? Thankfully, you know, you're hitting refresh 5 million times on the, on the computer. Um, because the, the Supreme Court will post the results online and I remember it was like mid-morning, finally it refreshed, saw that I passed.

It's like, you know, a weight lift off of you. Like, okay, good, now I'm finally attorney and now I feel like I can pay for the house and the loan that I just took out. 

josh W: Wow. What, when you saw that, walk us through that, that moment. What was your next action? Did you make some phone calls, some shoot, some text messages?

Did you go get some more loans? Like what was that? What was the next No, 

CJ Miller: you know, all of the above. You know, I was on a, a group text message with a lot of my closest friends from law school and we're all, you know, furiously refreshing the page and, you know, all excited. We all passed. We were all very happy to finally get that result, you know, call up my parents, very happy to, to hear the results.

And, you know, the firm, uh, celebrated with us. There was one other attorney who, who was in my class. We both, uh, you know, found out that same day we had passed. And so, you know, there's a little party for us. And so, you know, it was a lot of happiness. You know, a lot of attorneys are all attorneys, you know, remember what it was like to wait for those results.

Mm-hmm. The relief that you have when you find out that you passed, uh, it's not quite as fun as it used to be. You know, pre-internet. You would have to go to New Orleans to, to kind of figure out what happens. The Supreme Court would post the, uh, the results on the doors of the Supreme Court. Like the thesis in the French water.

Exactly. Yeah. I mean like channeling Martin Luther and his thesis. Yeah. In his, in nine five thesis. But, you know, it's not as fun as that, you know, waiting outside with, you know, this whole big group of people, but still, you know, an exciting moment to, to see your name there as one of the ones that's been deemed minimally competent to practice law in Louisiana.

josh W: Well, I'm glad you're minimally competent. 

CJ Miller: Exactly. Exactly. And you know, one of the attorneys, uh, at my current firm I'm currently at, at Lisko and Lewis here in Lafayette, one of the attorneys, uh, loves to say, you know, I wish I knew now what I thought I knew when I first graduated law school. 

josh W: I wish I knew now what I thought I knew when I first graduated.

Exactly. 

CJ Miller: So you definitely learn after that, after that excitement of passing the bar that you still have a whole lot to, to figure out and work through as an attorney. 

josh W: Yeah. So you pass the bar, you sit for the bar, you pass the bar. Mm-hmm. Then you go to the bar to celebrate. 

CJ Miller: Right. Exactly. There's a lot of different bars in there.

josh W: Yeah. And then you raise the bar over the time. Ah, we could, we could play on that for a long time. So cj uh, one of the, I think aspirations for, you know, we've interviewed, uh, Thomas Hook, who is a, uh, in-house counsel mm-hmm. Uh, here at, at the group that we work with. Mm-hmm. And great interview and a lot of fun.

Great guy. And I think the aspiration for a lot of, uh, transactional attorneys, corporate attorneys is to kind of get some experience. Mm-hmm. Go through the ringer and then eventually go to where they could dig deep with the group private equity group, family office mm-hmm. Or whatever, you know, strategic buyer and become an in-house counsel.

Mm-hmm. Did you find that that was for transactional, like that was the path that most people, maybe not most, that a lot of people aspired to and why? 

CJ Miller: Yeah. I think that's a fair assessment. I think there are, uh, a lot of transactional corporate attorneys who do see as a good kind of pathway, as a good alternative, the in-house world.

And I think there's a lot of promise in there and there's a lot that really offers you. A good use of your tools. You know, when you're a transactional attorney, you're really trying to dig into the meat of business, you know, to kind of dig your teeth into your client's method of operating. And, you know, when you are an attorney at a firm, you know, you have dozens of clients at one time, right?

And you're trying to understand all of their different businesses, all of their different methods of operation, what makes them tick, how to put together documents and, and instruments in a way that makes sense to them. Whereas when you're an in-house attorney, you know, you have one client, you know, the, the business that hires you, and you can kind of sink your teeth more into that particular client and kind of understand maybe the, the business aspect and, and how it relates to the different legal needs.

And so, you know, there's some benefit I think to that and, and what draws a lot of the. Corporate folks into that world is being able to focus kind of on one client instead of feeling like maybe you're, you know, trying to understand dozens at one time. 

josh W: Yeah. One of the, the promises and expectations was we were gonna kind of talk about, okay, and now I'm gonna turn you now what?

Mm-hmm. We have some aspirations. You went down a path. Right. So like within law. Mm-hmm. Just like with any net new career is you're going to kind of find your path, find your niche. Mm-hmm. Find your lane talk. Just 'cause you started, uh, at that one law firm where the 95 thesis was published. Right. And you saw it and you celebrated and it was great experience.

Then you moved to a few different, you know, things to, to find your path. To find your lane. Mm-hmm. Walk us through that and then maybe some of the, the mindset or the anxieties that, you know, maybe making changes along the way that, that fit you better. 

CJ Miller: Mm-hmm. 

josh W: Walk us through that. 

CJ Miller: Sure. And you know, you get outta law school at.

If you're like me and go kind of straight through high school, undergrad law school, you get outta law school at 25 and you're supposed to kind of know what you want to do for the next 40 years, which is, you know, a pretty tall order. You know, you don't necessarily know what all is entailed in the practice of law.

You kind of know how to maybe think like a lawyer, but you don't really know what that means, and you're trying to make decisions on, okay, what do I think will make me happy? What do I think will be the way I see my career following? So it's, you know, there's a lot of questions swirling around your head when you know you're barely kind of old enough to really understand some of the nuances and really where you see your life heading.

So I, uh, immediately started off in private practice at a smaller size law firm, uh, here in Lafayette that I was at for. Uh, when I first got outta law school, uh, I then moved to, uh, Lisko and Lewis, which is kind of a mid-size firm based outta New Orleans. Uh, has offices kind of around the, the Gulf Coast, including here in Lafayette.

Uh, was there for about six and a half years and really kind of developed a practice there. Whenever I was in my time at Lisko, knew I wanted to do transactional law. If you asked me what type of transactional law you wanna do, I had no idea coming outta law school. And so I tried a few different things, but really kind of fell into a niche here of commercial banking and finance.

I was very fortunate to have a, a great mentor at the firm, Billy Do domain for people who are in Louisiana, kind of in that commercial lending sphere. I mean, everyone knows. Who Billy is, he had practiced for, you know, 40 plus years in Lafayette. A great, you know, banking attorney, super smart, super nice, just someone who was willing to take the time and energy to really teach me kind of the nuances of what it takes to, you know, represent banks in commercial lending transactions, what it takes to put collateral in place.

And so I really spent a number of years learning that process. If you asked me in law school did I see myself doing banking, absolutely not. But whenever I finally saw what it was like to actually be in that role, work with banks, work with clients, I really enjoyed it. There's a lot of kind of critical thinking involved.

Touches on a number of different spheres. You know, when there's real estate collateral, you have to have an understanding of commercial real estate. You have to have an understanding of corporate law to be able to read borrowers, articles of organization, articles of incorporation, understand how borrowing actions can be authorized, putting together resolutions.

And so I really enjoyed kind of, again, kind of going back to my undergraduate time, really thinking among different disciplines and having to think of the whole, and not just focusing on something in a silo. So my practice kind of morphed into heavily commercial banking, finance, commercial real estate, mergers and acquisitions, general corporate, uh, in a market the size of Lafayette, you kind of dabble in a number of different transactional avenues, which really I think helps you become a better, well-rounded transactional attorney because you understand the different aspects.

Uh, after about six and a half years, you know, there was an opportunity. That came up to, to move in-house, uh, locally with, uh, a regional healthcare system. And the thought of moving in-house was, you know, kind of appealing. Like we had talked about, you know, when you're a transactional corporate attorney, the thought of having one client, having one kind of business to, to understand has, has a lot of appeal because, you know, you're trying to fit the business into the legal, and you're always, I think, as a transactional attorney, you're there to help facilitate.

I mean, of course you counsel about risk, you counsel about, you know, what makes the most sense legally. But at the end of the day, we're there to try to facilitate business transactions. Mm-hmm. We're not there to stand in the way. And so the thought of having kind of one client to, to understand how that goes has a lot of appeal.

So, uh, after very difficult soul searching moment. Deciding what I saw in my practice and trying to determine, you know, how I saw my life as an attorney evolving and, and changing. I decided to make a very difficult decision to leave private practice and, and go in-house with this healthcare system. Uh, but it was very difficult.

I made a lot of, you know, good relationships at the firm and, uh, it was a difficult decision, uh, but left to go in-house, uh, and started that journey. 

josh W: Yeah. That was, those are very tough decisions. Mm-hmm. You make friends, you have allies. Mm-hmm. You develop like these mentor relationships mm-hmm. With people that you truly care about.

You like your clients, but you have this like, I, I've gotta try this. Mm-hmm. I have to, I, I don't wanna live a life of regret. Mm-hmm. And there's no other way if I don't say yes to this. That I might, I might regret this one day. 

CJ Miller: And that was very much my thought process was, you know, it's always kind of been the back of my head, which I think it is for a lot of corporate attorneys.

What would that, you know, life be like, you know, what would my practice look like if I'd go in-house? And you don't ever really know until you do it. Yeah. And that opportunity doesn't really come up often in a market the size of Lafayette or, or really in south Louisiana, you know, if you're not in a big market like Houston or Dallas.

Mm-hmm. And when the opportunity kind of arose, it was almost like, okay, do I try it now and, and see what it's like, you know, this seems like it's the next step for me. I'm excited to try it out. Or do I let it go? And I mean, I think you're a hundred percent right. You wonder what it would've been like.

Yeah. And, and you know, sometimes the worst thing to ever go and, and continue in life with is what if, what if? And I didn't necessarily want that. What if to kind of chase me? 

josh W: Yeah. I didn't want the what if to chase me. Man, that's good. That's powerful. That's deep. So you made the decision, did, let's reflect on it.

CJ Miller: So I spent quite a while. I mean, it was the process of just interviewing the process of, of deciding what to do. You know, it took several weeks. Mm-hmm. And it's not something I wanted to just jump into, you know, as we were talking about, you know, I'd been at the firm for a number of years, had the relationships with clients, with attorneys, with mentors, and didn't want to make a hasty decision, but again, didn't want to do something that I would regret.

Mm-hmm. And a lot of prayer, a lot of talking with people. Uh, again, you know, I was the only child leaning on the support system of my parents. A lot of talks with them at the end of the day, received the job offer and accepted it. After about a week or so of kind of, okay, now I have the offer. I have an idea of what my, you know, career, my life would be like after I know what I'm leaving, but I think I'm ready for this next step.

And it was very bittersweet. You know, it was exciting to, to try something that, that seemed like it was going to be the logical next step in my career progression, but also sad to, to leave the people I've been working with. 

josh W: Yeah. Keep, keep going. Sure. Because, uh, there was another reflective point in the, in this story.

CJ Miller: It, there, there is. So I think oftentimes the, the typical story you hear, this is where it's like, okay, and then I went into in-house work and that was the rest of my life for the next 30 years. Uh, uh, as typical and much of my life, I did not follow the, the standard path from that. Uh, so I started at, at the health system, uh, in-house attorney.

Great. You know, great business, great people, great legal department. Doing very, you know, complicated high level work, but in a supportive environment, you know, it seemed like the, the best of everything for, for an in-house environment. 

josh W: Right. 

CJ Miller: Um, I enjoyed the work, I enjoyed the people I worked with, but it just seemed like something was missing.

And of course, you know, when you're going into something different, you know, it's going to take time to, to kind of, you know, have it, you fall into a pattern, fit into normalcy. And after several months I kind of realized, you know, what was missing was kind of the really the, the love and kind of passion that I had developed for my kind of varied practice in, in firm life.

josh W: Yeah. 

CJ Miller: Like I mentioned though, I did a number of commercial lending, commercial banking work. Um, I worked with a number of small business owners, you know, throughout the area, whether they were, you know. Dealing with contract drafting and review purchasing, selling real estate, purchasing and selling businesses.

And kind of that fast paced kind of varied experience of being able to work with a number of different businesses, work with a number of different clients, being kind of a banking nerd, missing, you know, drafting loan documents and collateral documents. And everybody tells me I'm crazy 'cause I say that.

But I realized kind of things I had taken for granted in private practice and in in law firm life that once it was gone I realized I was kind of what drove me as an attorney and what I really kind of enjoyed in my practice. And, um, I was very fortunate that when I kind of came to that realization and, and reached back out to the firm, that they were very supportive.

They recognized, I think the good. Lessons that I learned being an in-house attorney because you do learn, you know, how to work with business a lot more. That's, I think, you know, a big difference is you see a lot more of the operational business aspect mm-hmm. Of what goes on into decision making than I do as an kind of outside counsel attorney.

And you learn a lot of lessons of what you can do as an attorney to facilitate and not block or not hinder something. So I think the firm, you know, recognized a lot of good information and background that I learned in my in-house practice, but I was very fortunate that they were willing to to, to take me back.

And, and I've since, you know, come back as a partner at the law firm. I've been back for two months and. Like I was joking with, with one of the people there, it's almost as if I never left. I kind of picked right back up with my clients with work, and uh, I've realized, you know, this is, this is the type of law that just makes me feel fulfilled and, and what I enjoy doing.

And that's, I think what you have to learn as, as an attorney, as any kind of professional. What kind of work is, is what fulfills you, what kind of work makes you happy. And a lot of times you don't know until you try things, until you're actually putting it into practice. And I think my biggest lesson that I've learned is I am now where I think I'm meant to be.

I'm working with, you know, many different clients, you know, locally and regionally, who I just love learning about their different businesses. And I think that's what makes me I'll, you know, dare to say a good. Transactional attorney is being able to listen, being able to ask questions, and really being able to learn about my clients and their businesses, and, and that's what I found fulfills me.

And, and that's why I'm glad to be back where I am. 

josh W: Yeah. I'm gonna wrestle with you for a little bit, Jonice. Sure. All right. Age 15. You knew what you wanted to do with your life, right? I knew this direction. Mm-hmm. Pause, pray, process. You went through the, you know, had conversations with family. Man, this makes sense.

You knew the path. Mm-hmm. 15. You went through this whole thing. You passed the test, you had a, the, the job. Mm-hmm. Man, you are where you're supposed to be. Right. This thing came up and you're like, man, I, I need to explore this. Mm-hmm. I need to go down this route. So you had to change paths. 

CJ Miller: Mm-hmm. 

josh W: You go down this path and you go, this isn't the right path.

Mm-hmm. I'm going back to this path now in that. Short detour. Mm-hmm. What did you learn about yourself? What did you learn about, um, the, the process of, um, approaching life decisions? Mm-hmm. Like what did you learn in, in the, in that detour moment? 

CJ Miller: I think what I've really learned is the benefit of taking time to pause, reflect, and do just self-awareness.

josh W: Yeah. 

CJ Miller: A lot of times I think we get so busy in life and I'm, you know, right now I'm single. I don't have kids. But I think especially for people who have families, you know, there's, you have family responsibilities all the time. There's work responsibilities, you know, civic responsibilities. You know, we're, we're busy people.

We often don't take the time to just reflect on what makes us. Feel like we're fulfilled and doing what we're called to do. Uh, you know, personally, I am, I'm Catholic, raised Catholic. Uh, my dad is, is a Catholic deacon, has been for a number of years and you know, I think we're all, you know, made and called for a specific purpose in life.

Mm-hmm. And a lot of times we just kind of glaze over what that means and how to figure it out. And I was very much guilty of that, you know, being busy in my career, being busy, and just learning how to be an adult. And I think if I could take away the biggest lesson that I learned over the last year, year and a half as I've kind of gone through a number of these transitions is the benefit of taking time just to reflect.

I am not good at having quiet time at being able to. Think through what actually makes me happy. And until I experienced different things and experienced different moments in my life, I just couldn't necessarily figure out what made me happy. Yeah. And I think that's kind of what I thought through in the biggest lesson in the last year, is what makes me f feel fulfilled as a person, as an attorney, as a member of society.

And I found what I have and it's made the difference to, to have gone through, to think through that, you know, there's times was very difficult. I think, you know, the life of, of an attorney and a law firm is very busy. There's a lot of, you know, late nights and long hours. But I feel like I'm making a difference.

I feel like I'm doing kind of what I was made to do, um, to be there to, to help others and, and I think that's what makes the difference, 

josh W: man. Thank you for the. Honest reflection there. Sure. Um, I ask that question because in, in my own life mm-hmm. Like, you've made a few pivots, but you got your stuff together from, you know, I 

CJ Miller: try or at least you fake it to me.

Fake it till 

josh W: you make it. Yeah. You know, like I, I've had so many careers, you know, I've, I won't go through 'em all here, but a lot. Mm-hmm. I've had a lot of those pivots and a lot of those kind of bouncing around trying to find my fit. Mm-hmm. Trying to find, you said it eloquently, like I, I envision you, like if I just heard your voice, you know, people are, some people might be watching a few of the clips on YouTube, but I think some people are listening in.

Mm-hmm. And I could just envision you like, sitting on a leather couch reading a, a, a book with a pipe in your hand. The, the, the, the southern gentleman draw, you know? Mm-hmm. Like the words you say, we talked about Latin in the beginning, but I think that there's a Louisiana language in there too, right?

Words like Lafayette and New Orleans and roll and our, and you know, there's. It's very like, it sounds cool. It's very soothing. Mm-hmm. Have you ever thought about just like reading books, like Out Loud being like, I think people would tune in for that. 

CJ Miller: I was like, honestly, that sounds like a very, uh, a very stress free type of, of pivot.

So I might have to think about that. But you know, it's interesting growing up and knowing I wanted to go to school out of state. Yeah. I grew up in Vermilion Parish in the middle of sugar cane fields. So I was like, okay, before I go to the big city of Houston, I need to try to smooth out some of this accent.

And I think in a number of ways, I, I tried to do that successfully. As soon as I would go to Houston, all of my friends would mercilessly tease me and said, oh my gosh, you sound like, you know, you just came out of the swamp. And like, you should hear some of the people, some other people that are, are back home.

And so, but I am told certain words that I say, you know, something a little bit will come out. Yeah. So, uh, so no, that's, uh, that's funny to always hear. That's usually the common per perspective from people. I,

josh W: I think it's endearing. I think I, I really, I really think it's, um, I think it's special man. Uh, Chris and I, you know, he's from North Carolina and I'm from, originally from South Florida.

But, you know, there's a, it, it, it's nice, man. I thank It's a, it's a compliment to you guys. Um, you, this, there's a sequence as I piece together the story mm-hmm. Created. Called, you gotta fulfill the calling. Mm-hmm. And then in doing that, you feel fulfilled. Mm-hmm. Right. So created, called Fulfill, you've gotta do the action and then fulfilled is the fruit.

Mm-hmm. Right. That you, that you mentioned the fruit, uh, in my story, I got some of those at a sequence. Mm-hmm. Right. Maybe chasing fulfillment or maybe, uh, fulfilling things that I wasn't called to do. Mm. Mm-hmm. Like as you're looking through, you know, now advising clients or, you know, dealing with transactional or maybe even, you know, maybe future, you'll be mentoring, you know, other future, you know, lawyers and, and young people.

Mm-hmm. How do you know what you're called to do? Or how do you know what would bring you fulfillment and joy? 

CJ Miller: No, and that's, yeah. I think as we've reflected on a number of these things, you know, that's such a deep question because. I think in our society we're so, you know, driven by what seems successful and what seems kind of that shiny thing.

And I'm, you know, certainly guilty of that oftentimes as well. But again, I think we're so conditioned to, to react and to chase things kind of impulsively that the need to stop and reflect has really gotten lost in the shuffle of busyness and the shuffle of success. And so what I just personally will try to apply in the matters that I work on just at a foundational level as an attorney, is I try to stop and think, okay, why is my client doing this?

What is the end goal? And how can we get there? Instead of trying to say, okay, let's just make this happen right away. I think you have to take the step back and, and ask those questions. Mm-hmm. And that's, you know, I have a, um, a little quotation, I think it is on my bio, on the firm website. And you know, I say that I think the best qualities you can have as a transactional attorney are to listen and to ask questions.

You know, we're so busy trying to, to give advice or we're so busy trying to say, okay, well I know the, the best thing to handle this, that we really lose the process. And I think that's, as a transactional attorney, the process is really at, at the heart of the matter. And so I think you can apply that just to life in general and, and certainly, you know, I'm trying to be better about applying it to my life in general.

That, okay, well I think this might make me happy now, but maybe that's not, you know, the right question. It's where do I see myself, you know, 5, 10, 25 years from now? Okay. And so then ask the questions, you know, why do I want that, you know, to be the end result. What can I do to get there? And what steps will be really what leads me to what I think will, will make me happy.

And again, I think we've lost the process, we've lost the questions, we've lost the pro con and really I think, you know, the Catholic and and liberal arts education I had received, you know, in elementary and high school, but also, especially in my undergraduate years, has tried to give me those tools. Um, I certainly think my faith gives me those tools and so something I try to apply professionally and personally.

josh W: Cj, you are a cool dude. Um, one of the traditions we have on this show is the guest get to pass on a question to the next guest. So, uh, prior to you sitting in that seat, Mr. Andre Broussard, uh, I probably butchered that last name. It's a Louisiana Brouchard uh, Broussard bro. Okay, awesome. It's very close.

Yeah. Thank you man. I appreciate that. He left a question for you. I have not read this. Oh, okay. All right. So, and then afterwards you get to write a question on the inside of this for the next guest. Okay. Okay. Nice. Are you ready for this? 

CJ Miller: Uh, I guess I'm ready as I'll ever be. 

josh W: Cool. What has made you the happiest in your life?

That's a good question. That's 

CJ Miller: a very profound question. 

josh W: And he's a CPA coming up with that kind deep question there. 

CJ Miller: Good job. That is very good. But I think also very appropriate kind of on the tenor of our conversation. 

josh W: Yeah.

CJ Miller: What has made me the happiest, and I think this is. A very good question. Reflecting on my, you know, career so far is being able to feel like I have made a difference in people's lives, both personally and professionally. You know, sometimes the greatest compliment you get as an attorney from your clients has been, I am so glad that you're back.

And I have been very fortunate to hear that from many of my clients since I've been back that I'm so happy you're back. We missed you. Here's a lot of work, you know? Yeah. Uh, one of the attorneys at the firm loves to say, you know, the reward for good work is more work. And, but you know, there really is a whole lot of truth in that.

And so professionally I feel like I've made a difference when I hear these things from my clients and personally. You know, I'm blessed to have, I'm an only child, so, but I'm blessed to have three different godchildren from various family members and friends and, you know, being able to take an active role in their lives.

Being an only child and, and being close back to my parents, uh, has been, you know, fulfilling and just feeling like that I've made a difference and feeling like I have a purpose and that I've found that purpose is, is what makes me happiest. And that's really bringing very true based on all the reflection I've done the last several months.

josh W: Yeah. You know. Um, what a great question. What a great answer. Good job, guys. And I didn't come up with it. That was from a previous guest, uh, for the audience out there, um, what I would love to, you know, do is we had a, we had Elliot Lin who, uh, submitted a question he's studying at LSU to be an attorney.

Mm-hmm. Transactional. So he sent in some questions last time and, uh, was answered on Lance's, uh, podcast. But the, uh, you know, people in the audience, if you have questions for our guests, if you have questions about mergers, acquisitions, about the world of deal making, middle market opportunities, like would love to hear your questions.

The deal podcast.com. We will read your questions or maybe play it live on, you know, on air as we're going through this. But like, we would love to hear the questions that you have. That's a good place for it. Um, we have a few minutes left. Mm-hmm. CJ to kind of set the expectation at the end, please. You'll write your question down.

Sure. And you'll, I, 

CJ Miller: the bar has set, been set high, so 

josh W: Yeah. Yeah. Um. When it comes to deals, right? Mm-hmm. Transactional attorney, corporate attorney, uh, for people listening in, especially in the area of Lafayette. Mm-hmm. Right? What, what are some of the, the perfect kind of deals that you'd like to work on? Uh, you know, give us a range of different type of transactions that if they're going through that or going to go through that, they might want to call you.

CJ Miller: Sure. So, uh, like I'd mentioned kind of my, my biggest practice area is the kind of middle market commercial banking and finance. And, and I work with a number of, of banks kind of on, you know, larger, larger for our market. You know, kind of million, million dollar up, uh, financings or, or financings that involve kind of unique types of collateral.

Uh, sometimes, you know, ship mortgages, for example, a lot of people don't realize if you want to take a security interest in a registered vessel, the federal government is the level that perfects that, and it's, uh. The Coast Guard does it in falling Waters, West Virginia. And so that's kind of a unique collateral aspect.

Doesn't happen all the time. Uh, aircraft collateral is another one that only the federal government, you know, takes, uh, takes the practice of, of securing collateral in that and you file in Oklahoma. So I love my practice of being able to kind of work on these larger loan transactions, kind of unique transaction structures, collateral structures.

And so I think that is certainly a, an area of expertise in mind, expertise of the firm, uh, that we love to, to work on that. Uh, and kind of the commercial real estate sphere. Um, our firm has an associated, you know, title company, so we're able to kind of do soup to nuts, everything in a, in a commercial real estate transaction.

We're able to do a purchase agreement review title, uh. Do a title, opinion, do a title report, you know, represent, you know, through the, the closing, do all the closing aspects. And so we love to be able to, to work with clients there, uh, in the m and a sphere, you know, we're, we're fortunate. I think, you know, south Louisiana is a huge, I'm sure as, as you know, and, and number of people you've talked to a huge entrepreneurial area.

Uh, we have plenty of businesses and, and honestly, sometimes these are, I get the best stories. Uh, people who, you know, they or their parents or grandparents started a business a number of years ago with, with nothing and or with very few. And, you know, through hard work and determination, uh, have grown it into, you know, a, a business that's worth 10, 15, 20 million on up.

And a lot of times, you know, we'll, we'll be engaged to, to represent both on the buy side or on the sell side. You know, we've done both. Um, to be able to walk people through that process. Um, as I'm sure you know. It has been talked about many times on this podcast and just generally, you know, it's, there's a lot of work when you're selling a business and almost invariably what our clients will say is, I didn't realize how much stuff the buyer was gonna ask about, or how much for sure documents they're gonna want to see.

And so if I could kind of give just any piece of advice, even if, you know, you don't come see us, but for people who are at least starting to think about selling a business, start getting all of kind of your documents in order, whether it's major contracts, whether it's your organizational documents, whether it's keeping lists of, you know, material customers and suppliers.

If you kind of have that going, I mean, you are way ahead of the game, uh, because that's almost the, the, the big surprise. But being able to walk people through that process. The happiness, you know, a lot of times when they are successful in selling a business is kind of one of the things that you almost get the most fulfillment of is, is kind of seeing that, that joy and, and just, you know, that pride of having built something and being able to enjoy the fruits of it.

So, you know, the transactions that, that I work on really, you know, run the gamut of, of any kind of transactional law. And, you know, I think I have kind of the. The expertise, the, the personality and just being able to, to work with people, get to know people, get to know their business, and, you know, I welcome, you know, any kind of, any kind of relationship with folks on that.

josh W: Cool. So if someone is thinking they have a mid-market business in and around this area mm-hmm. And they're thinking of selling, you know, they, what are some of the, what are some of the steps in terms of who should they reach out to? What kind of teams should they, you know, work with? I know that, you know, Jude has taught me, uh, a ton in that, that sphere, but kind of walk us through the, maybe some of the different groups.

You don't have to name names or if you want to, you can, but like, what are some of the different types of, uh, professionals that you might wanna loop into that conversation rather than go at it alone? 

CJ Miller: I mean, you know. Especially, I mean, almost at a minimum, you know, legal counsel and you know, accounting, uh, having finance counsel, being able to kinda understand the nuances of tax structure, of how you allocate, you know, some of the purchase price among different assets.

Being able to understand, you know, legal implications like indemnities, for example, and the number of representations and warranties you might make as a seller saying, you know, the business has done this, or the business has not done that, or, you know, there's this kind of litigation or there's these types of potential problems.

I mean, I think the legal counsel is so important for that. And then finance counsel, you know, accountants, CPAs, everyone who. You know, the business has historically trusted, but even so on a going forward basis to know, okay, if I'm selling my business for X dollars, you know, what does this mean for me from a tax standpoint?

Uh, so I think at a minimum, you know, you need to have the, the legal and accounting folks involved, uh, help sometimes to have, you know, brokers involved. It helps sometimes to have advisors involved on, on how to structure things. But I think having a qualified team in place going into it will make the, it's still a difficult process, but, you know, it makes it a lot easier because, you know, the, the business people, you know, the, the owners, the sellers, they have the knowledge of how their business works.

And that's an, that's a key point. You know, the attorneys and the other advisors don't know the operational aspect, but, you know, you really need to kind of couple that with the nuances of, of the deal as well. So really, I mean, you know, it takes a team, it takes a village and, you know, going at it alone, there's so many, you know.

Unknown pitfalls that you could create. You know, the, the goal is to try to insulate risk and liability as much as possible, and that's kind of where the advisor's role come in. 

josh W: Super cool. Yeah, man, cj, so good chatting with you during this interview. Uh, what we'll do is we'll put your information in the show notes.

Sure. So as people are listening in, they go, man, that's a guy that we'd like to talk with, not only because he has a good accent, but because we think he'd take good care of us. Uh, so we'll, we'll put that in the show notes and, um, you know, our ask of our audience is that we all, you all reach out to. I said, y'all, y'all reach out to our, our guests, say thanks for being on the show.

Uh, connect with them, follow them on, on LinkedIn and, and wherever else you might find them. And, um, you know, just show your appreciation to our guests. They've, they've taken time out to share their wisdom, their knowledge, their journey to help. With our core mission, which is to kind of connect and share the journey of deal makers, some of the things we've learned and hopefully do deals together.

Mm-hmm. So, you know, when it comes to deals, you know, if you guys have a, have these kind of deals in the mid market that you're looking to maybe evaluate or maybe sell or something, we'd love for you to have a conversation with cj, have a conversation with us. We'd love to, to kind of take a look at it and see if it, if it would be a good fit.

And, um, you know, a good place to do that is the deal podcast.com. Fill out a quick form and heck, maybe even get you on the next show till then. We'll talk to you all on the next episode. Cheers everyone 

all.