WEBVTT
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All right, good day, everybody.
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Welcome to the Deal Podcast.
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Now, check this out.
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I was watching some YouTube shorts.
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I know you guys do that too.
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And I was watching some LinkedIn shorts, and I saw this guy talking about private equity.
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And he was talking about here's the reason a lot of like private equity companies might fail or uh portfolio companies might fail.
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And I was like, man, I'd really like to chat with this guy.
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He runs a marketing group and he knows a lot about the world of deals and marketing.
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So, Scott, welcome to the show, man.
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Hey, thanks for having me.
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All right.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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So cool background, cool studio.
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Uh tell us a little bit about who is Scott.
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Yeah, so I'm a marketing guy.
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I've uh I've built and run um advertising agencies for the last 18 years.
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Uh before that, I I worked in the media world for CBS.
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Uh so kind of sold media, understood sort of the media buying world, um, and then uh started my agency.
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Um, and we've grown over the years.
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Uh, I exited one of my digital agencies to PE last year.
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Um, but I've built and and bought and sold, you know, advertising agencies for the last 20 years.
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Uh so that's kind of been my background.
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And then I'm also a little unique, and um I have a real estate development company um that has like sort of an adjacency to advertising in out-of-home billboards.
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So uh we have a$200 million fund to buy existing billboard companies, operators, adjacent billboard real estate.
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Um, we ground up, develop our own billboards, um, and then we manage billboard portfolios for other smaller independents as well.
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And that business is called Harky Media.
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So I kind of straddle two worlds of sort of the professional service space of advertising agencies and then uh more of a real estate world um adjacent to advertising in out-of-home billboards.
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Yeah, no kidding.
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So you said you've been doing this for about 20 years.
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How old are you, man?
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You don't look like you've been doing this for 20 years.
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Yeah, I'll I'll take it.
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Um, I turned 44 uh last week.
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So we're you know, we're we're getting there.
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Yeah, man.
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Well, cool.
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So all right, you sold a company to PE.
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Walk us through as you know, as your world went building, you know, marketing agencies and building stuff, uh, you know, you sold to PE.
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Walk us through like what that experience was like.
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Sure.
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Um, well, I uh, you know, for for me, I try to keep up with a lot of the iBankers in in our specific little advertising sector space.
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And what I've noticed is a lot of my friends um who run independent agencies all across the country.
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So we're in in sort of Phoenix and Las Vegas are our home bases for our agencies.
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I do a lot of work in Southern California, have lived in and out of LA.
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Um, but you know, my friends in, you know, Nashville and and Tennessee and New York, uh, Denver, I mean, there's little independent, privately owned agencies all over the country.
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And one thing I noticed is a lot of them really didn't understand the mechanics of an exit of an ad agency.
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They were so deep in doing ad agency work for their brands and clients, um, they really didn't understand the deal flow of their space.
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And uh, it's something that I really wanted to understand at a deeper level.
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Um, and I started learning a lot more about my friends who are in private equity and you know, things like eBay to arbitrage and you know, how they could save money on the back end, write-offs, like the the world, you know, really sort of spoke to me and just created a lot of curiosity.
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All your friends are doing uh, you know, these ad agencies and the ad buying, and they're focused on doing the work, doing the business, right?
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And you were kind of looking at how do I build this as a business that could be valuable, that maybe one day I could exit, right?
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Is that how your brain was thinking?
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Yeah.
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And well, I noticed two things um in the two worlds I operate in.
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Number, number one, um, in the advertising space, you have giant publicly traded holding companies, right?
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Publicist, Omnicom, WPP, um, and they're all in like different countries almost, right?
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There's probably, you know, half dozen large publicly traded advertising agencies that roll up and buy agencies all over the world.
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Um, and then you have like these micro mom and pop, like onesie twosie sort of, you know, marketing professionals.
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And then you have like sort of the middle market, uh, which I would consider middle market.
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I bankers wouldn't, um, you know, call it 25 to 200 person ad agencies, uh, you know, doing somewhere between, you know, 5 million and 25 million in fees.
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Um, uh, what we call fees would be, you know, gross, gross profit.
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Uh and so, you know, I noticed this world where um all these independent operators like myself, um, you know, are just grinding.
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We're grinding with clients.
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Um, and I saw a huge opportunity for little tuck-ins, and I did little tuck-ins, you know, friends of mine that just wanted to be part of a bigger organization, have a have a group focused on sales, have a back-end office.
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Um, so it was very similar to private equity on a super boutique level, but there's all these little independents out there that aren't big enough to get a crazy multiple and really don't have size and scale advantage.
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And then you have these giant publicly traded companies.
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Um, so uh it just seemed like an opportunity for me to find friends and partners to buy or to start little agencies and be like a little boutique because the big guys were certainly rolling up.
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And then PE started rolling up, I noticed in my space, you know, in the last five years.
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So um just saw an opportunity um with smaller independents like myself who wanted size and scale advantage um and an exit at some point for a decent multiple, not a you know, a two or a three, which you know, at that level, you you basically can just milk your profits um as long as you can, which which a lot of people do in my space.
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You know, people have been doing it 40, 50 years, and they'll make their you know, half a million, 750,$2 million a year, you know, just personally and and you know, have a fun life at the country club.
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For sure.
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For sure.
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But you wanted something different, you wanted, you know, increase multiple and ultimate exit.
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Now, yes, I I I think that this is worth talking about when it comes to this idea of hey, we could do more together.
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Let's look at like almost like if as if we were a boutique group, the synergy of, hey, look, you could grind all day.
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Maybe you're a great technician, maybe maybe you're a great tactical person, but you suck at sales, or maybe you're great at sales and your business falls apart in the back end of management of the client or the process or paperwork or God forbid, filing your taxes and doing that crap, right?
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So, like what how did you approach it and and why would people say yes to do a tuck-in with you?
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Yeah, no, a great question.
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Um, yeah, I've noticed, you know, I'll give you a very specific example just from my experience.
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So we have a film company in our group called Matter Films, and these guys are awesome.
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I mean, the the the the guy that runs it um as a director, um, he's got this giant, you know, red beard, and he's just like the most creative dude you've ever met.
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And the and the videos and the films and the commercials and the content work they put together for clients, I mean, it's unreal.
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I mean, they're hanging out of helicopters and drones and all this stuff.
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Um, they can't be thinking about the finance backend office.
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I mean, there's three of them, you know.
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Um, they can't be thinking about, you know, marketing, branding, their SEO going to sell.
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It's a nightmare.
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They want to do great work.
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Um, and so I saw that with a number of agencies.
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I saw it with my own.
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And I just think there's there's big opportunity for creatives that want to do great work, at least in our space, to be able to have the back end office, you know, covered for them and to have cross-selling opportunities.
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So our agency was hiring film companies all the time.
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Well, why not just hire our own film company that we trust and you know, we know they're not going to screw us over and they're going to deliver.
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Um, so sometimes we go out of house and hire other film companies.
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A lot of times we'll hire our own film company.
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Just made sense.
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Um, same thing with a ton of other services, whether that's digital ad buying or a PR firm.
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Um, there's just, I think, a lot of cross-selling opportunities because our clients who love us um want to do more work with us and they'd rather keep it under one point of contact and do more work.
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And by by the way, like the model of roll-up ad agencies that have existed for a hundred years.
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Jay Shiat did it originally and became Omnicom out of LA.
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I mean, the roll-ups in in ad agency world, you know, have been going on forever because, you know, the size and scale advantage, clients want less agencies and less people to deal with.
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So I I just see I think it is a big opportunity.
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Now, I'm not private equity backed.
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I don't have, you know, the cash.
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So I have to be a little more creative in our deal structure and um find the right cultural fits, um, which, you know, as you probably know, is the biggest um is is the biggest missed, I think, step by people as they look at the numbers and they don't see like when you have two cultures, like one's got to win out.
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Like you if both cultures remain, like you're gonna have a big problem.
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Um, owners don't get along or whatever else.
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So it doesn't matter what you get the agency for, what sort of deal structure, if if it's a bad cultural fit, um, to me, that that's the that's a huge red flag.
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Yeah, it's like Anchorman, when the two different like news casts like meet together, like one will rise triumphantly with a with a trident.
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But yeah, there's a culture crash or or um clash when when groups merge.
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So, how did you when you're looking to do tucking, when you're talking to some of your buddies and you're you're building, you're going to these conferences and you're seeing people do work, and you say, hey man, what was your pitch to them for them to want to say, we want to work with you, Scott?
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We want to uh work for you, we want to work with you.
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So I've I've probably not done more than I've done just just based on you know evaluation, deal size, you know, who's gonna run it, right?
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You can't have two sort of people merged together that are running their own agencies.
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Um, so there's been a ton of friends who I I haven't rolled up.
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Um, but one that I did, uh there was an agency in Las Vegas called SKG, um did a ton of work for you know insane brands.
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Um Win Resorts was was a big one.
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Uh, you know, the guy that ran that agency was Steve Wynn, CMO.
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So he was just dialed in the hotel, casino, hospitality world.
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And we had a lot of those type of clients.
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And uh, you know, he was in his late 50s, early 60s.
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I was in my late 30s, early 40s, late 30s, and we just got along.
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We were just friends for a long time.
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And then he got to the point he's like, I'm done.
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Why don't you take this over?
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I want to go work with clients and go get business, but I don't like running an agency.
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It kind of sucks.
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Um, so that was a great deal.
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So he and I have been, we still work together.
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It's been seven years later.
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Um, and we've done a lot of great work together.
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Um, he's got to have a lot less on his plate.
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Um, and uh, you know, I I've built out a little bit more of a operational efficiency sort of machine.
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Um, and he can just go do client work and go bring clients to the table.
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So that there's just I think it just has to be the the right deal.
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Um, I've done another deal when I bought this digital agency from a friend of mine that I knew.
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That's actually the one I sold to PE most recently.
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Sorry, you can probably hear my eight-month-old baby in the background.
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Um, uh good old work from home Friday.
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But uh he um he he and his management team, his culture, my culture, just it wasn't a fit.
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And ultimately, that's why we we did sell it to PE last year.
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Yeah, yeah, man.
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It's it's it's fun being in the world of business.
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Um but yeah, sometimes it doesn't work, right?
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Sometimes working with friends doesn't work.
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What did you learn along the way of buying companies, selling companies, like that?
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You would you're continually to to improve yourself and in the future of how you do business.
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Okay, so you know, look, I I went to a really prestigious college.
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Um, you guys may have heard of it.
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It's called Arizona State University.
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They they call it the Harvard of the West.
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I'm just totally kidding it.
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Uh so so you know, I I like to really simplify things, but when I heard the math about it, I wish I could frankly do more.
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I wish there were capital platforms for good operators to tuck more in instead of, you know, you know, going fully PE, um, because I the math just works.
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For example, let's say there's an agency doing a million dollars in EBITDA.
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And that agency is probably in our world going to trade for like call it three, three million-ish, you know, maybe a three to four times multiple, depending on type of agency and team and talent and tenure of client, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, all that stuff.
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Um, so if I'm buying the agency for, let's just say easy math, you know, three million.
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And in our space, you know, a lot of times you see sort of half down and half over three years.
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If it's PE, it's probably 70% down, and then the rest over a year.
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Um, but operators more half down and half over three with, you know, account retention clauses and this and that.
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So so I'm only have to come out of pocket 1.5 million.
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And I probably can get debt from my bank or get other debt, at least all of it or half of it.
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So um, and then within my group, and I'm trying to get to an EBITDA level that gets me at a 10 times, um, right?
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So that's what I I think you saw in my TikTok video.
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That's EBITDA arbitrage.
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So I you're you're telling me I put$750,000 cash down and now have an asset within my group as an enterprise value of 10 million.
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That's pretty in, that's pretty insane.
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Now, that's not even calculating all the, you know, probably call it 20% savings in back end office and accounting, finance, HR benefits, all that.
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And that's not counting any cross-selling increase in sales.
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Yeah.
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So that are so I'm just looking at the arbitrage.
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I'm like, dude, PE has it structured where they can't lose.
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And I'm looking at all this little independent guys just grinding away, making, you know, call it 17 to 25% profit margin in in in fee in a in a fee business.
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So that that was sort of when I just looked at the math, I was like, oh my gosh, this makes so much sense.
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Makes so much sense.
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Let me tell you how dumb I am.
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Let me tell you how stupid I, you know, I I've so I cut my teeth in um in venture capital, you know, building my own startup.
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And this like this addiction to creating my own thing and going from negative to zero, from zero to one, like Peter Thiel talks about, like going from zero to one, is so brutal.
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It took it's insane.
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It's insane.
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Yeah, the amount of resources and sleepless nights and times where you think your wife left you in the middle, you know, like all of the crap that happens from building.
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And then I started working with like uh one of our our partners, Jude David, and he's like, Why in the world would you ever do a startup?
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You can buy EBITDA, you can buy you can work with a company that has meat on the bones, and then you can pay people.
00:15:52.879 --> 00:15:54.240
Um you're right.
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I I've done I've done seven of them.
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I won't do another one again.
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It's insane.
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It and it I tell entrepreneurs all the time, they're like, What's my advice?
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I'm like, all right, you're starting a company, give yourself as much runway as possible to get the plane off the ground.
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Could be five years, could be seven years, could be ten years, but probably on average, you know, five to seven years before you're you're actually seeing any profit.
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So can you live your lifestyle for five years with no money?
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I doubt it.
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Man, I went a year and a half with no money, and that does not feel good, buddy.
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It really doesn't.
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My agency is, you know, it was probably four or five years before there was any sort of real accounts or real growth or like any resemblance of a real business.
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Yeah.
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We interviewed a guy named Um Thomas Chance, and he said, Here's the hack if you're really good, if you're the technician, go work with someone five years, earn equity, work your tail off, and then go buy business with that person, or ask them to invest and start up a new branch within it.
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Like never start with zero, never go from zero to something.
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It's so it's so hard.
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Um, and then what what's interesting is um I saw the same thing in the out-of-home space where it was similar to the agency space.
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In the in the out-of-home industry, there's there's three publicly traded companies, right?
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Clear channel, outfront, Lamar.
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They're like 60% of the market.
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And they're all multi-billion dollar companies.
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They have, I think Lamar has 140,000 billboards across the US.
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And then you have, you know, then you have some other, you know, PE backed, like Blackstones bought a company called New Tradition, Orange Barrels, another big one.
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They raised a couple of billion dollars.
00:17:34.799 --> 00:17:39.839
Uh, so you know, call it, you know, six to seven of those who are super large.
00:17:40.079 --> 00:17:44.000
Those seven, eight companies are like 80% of the market.
00:17:44.160 --> 00:17:54.400
And then if you look at the 20% of the other billboard market, there's like two or three thousand little independent operators who don't have size and scale at all.
00:17:54.559 --> 00:17:58.000
And the big guys, if they want to buy them, they just lowball them, right?
00:17:58.079 --> 00:18:02.319
There, you know, Lamar is the only buyer in out-of-home assets right now.
00:18:02.480 --> 00:18:04.960
And I know a lot of these independents because I'm an independent.
00:18:05.039 --> 00:18:07.759
I've built a bunch of boards in Phoenix and Las Vegas, Arizona.
00:18:07.839 --> 00:18:10.319
That was like my hobby business in out-of-home.
00:18:10.480 --> 00:18:12.480
And uh, so we see the same thing.
00:18:12.720 --> 00:18:19.920
Um, we raise some money from a family office in New York, and there's a guy in our market who's done a lot of debt for billboards.
00:18:20.079 --> 00:18:27.839
And we work for little independent operators that we can pick up, you know, somewhere six, seven, eight multiple on their billboard cash flow.
00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:38.720
And and within our group, uh, you know, with a couple hundred billboards, you know, which is still small, um, is worth a you know, 12, 13, 14, 15 multiple, right?
00:18:38.799 --> 00:18:40.799
So it the arbitrage is there.
00:18:40.880 --> 00:18:48.079
If you can figure out a way to finance, you know, the debt and and find some investors and then have some operational efficiencies.
00:18:48.160 --> 00:18:57.359
We've built out, you know, uh pretty large, you know, national, local, digital sales team to sell all the assets and then a real estate team to ground up develop.
00:18:57.519 --> 00:18:59.920
Um, that's where I've been able to find a model.
00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:07.680
Now, again, the the billboard stuff makes it a little easier because there's real estate value and the invest, so it's easier to raise money.
00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:13.119
On the agency side, you know, frankly, where I haven't been successful is is is raising the money.
00:19:13.279 --> 00:19:15.599
I own all the equity and I just have bank debt.
00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:25.839
And so there, there's it's really hard, I think, for for people other than PE, you know, people in my space, unless, you know, they come from a wealthy family or they've saved their money really well.
00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:28.640
It's really hard for most agency operators to do tuck ins.
00:19:28.799 --> 00:19:34.319
They just don't, they don't have the cash and can't really get the the the leverage the same way you can in a in a real estate business.
00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:35.839
For sure, for sure.
00:19:35.920 --> 00:19:36.400
Yeah.
00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:43.119
Because they they look at it as a tangible asset where if you get hit by a car, then they're like, well, you know, will the business survive?
00:19:43.359 --> 00:19:43.680
Correct.
00:19:43.759 --> 00:19:49.119
Yeah, you can have systems processes, great people, and that's when your business becomes more and more valuable.
00:19:49.200 --> 00:19:53.519
It's when you could get hit by a bus and it's still just as valuable.
00:19:53.759 --> 00:19:55.039
That's hard to do.
00:19:55.359 --> 00:19:56.160
It's super hard.
00:19:56.240 --> 00:20:02.960
I mean, there's some SPA options, there's there's some, you know, line of credit based on receivable, you know, BS.
00:20:03.039 --> 00:20:20.319
But other than that, I mean, there's really not a lot of other leverage or, you know, not a lot of family office who's super excited to be, you know, minority and in a in a super um what they would call um risky, you know, professional service business and advertising agencies.
00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:33.519
And that's why private equity, I actually think don't like agencies and they screw them up too, is because the highs and lows of getting accounts and losing accounts, like it's not steady, it's not as predictable as most other markets.
00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:34.960
It's all over the place.
00:20:35.200 --> 00:20:35.599
Yeah.
00:20:35.759 --> 00:20:36.559
Yeah, man.
00:20:37.359 --> 00:20:41.039
So well, I love your honesty in this.
00:20:41.200 --> 00:20:46.960
Um, so as you build out your, you know, multiple businesses and stuff, what are you most excited about?
00:20:47.119 --> 00:20:52.240
What what drives you besides having eight month-old now that you have to put diapers on?
00:20:53.279 --> 00:21:04.880
You know, um I'm really excited about the leverage um and and niche opportunity in out-of-home billboards, probably more so than the agency.
00:21:05.039 --> 00:21:07.519
Um so I just see that as more of a growth engine.
00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:11.759
I, you know, I'm an entrepreneur, so you know, I'm addicted to things that are growing.
00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:16.799
Um my agency is doing incredible work for insane brands.
00:21:16.880 --> 00:21:19.759
I mean, Win Resorts, did we do a lot of work with Disney.
00:21:19.920 --> 00:21:25.599
I mean, just like really cool, fun Marriott, like fun brands, and we have great people.
00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:31.200
Um uh we have a couple of tuck-in opportunities we're looking at right now.
00:21:31.359 --> 00:21:36.960
Um, we're not gonna be the high-priced player, but we're gonna be a better culture play for the right agencies.
00:21:37.039 --> 00:21:39.440
So I'm hoping that um can happen.
00:21:39.599 --> 00:21:45.119
Um, and then I would say in the next two to three years, we do want to exit to PE at some point.
00:21:45.440 --> 00:21:49.759
Um, and I'd probably consider rolling some over depending on the PE company.
00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:54.240
And hopefully they see us as a platform to bolt on other agency owners.
00:21:54.319 --> 00:21:55.359
I know a lot of them.
00:21:55.440 --> 00:21:57.599
Um, but we'll see how how that rolls out.
00:21:57.680 --> 00:21:59.759
If not, we can continue to grow organically and make.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:01.839
A nice business and cash flow.
00:22:01.920 --> 00:22:08.559
So I'm I'm trying to stay disciplined of acting like we're not going to sell, but also being strategic and planning to try to sell.
00:22:08.720 --> 00:22:08.960
Right.
00:22:09.119 --> 00:22:16.319
So that's sort of the mindset I'm I'm trying to keep myself in and my team, especially my executive team.
00:22:17.039 --> 00:22:18.640
But you know, who knows?
00:22:18.720 --> 00:22:33.759
You know, we could lose a big account tomorrow and you know, everything's out the window, and then we've got to focus and grind again and keep the operational, you know, uh, you know, percentage at the right at the right level to to you know stay stay afloat, so to speak.
00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:34.880
It's crazy.
00:22:35.359 --> 00:22:39.680
What part of the business do you most find joy in?
00:22:41.119 --> 00:22:42.880
I mean, I'm kind of a deal guy.
00:22:42.960 --> 00:22:43.680
I like the deals.
00:22:44.480 --> 00:22:45.200
I like, right?
00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:47.119
Like, I like pitching clients.
00:22:47.279 --> 00:22:49.920
Um, there's a book that I recommend to everybody.
00:22:50.079 --> 00:22:55.359
Your audience would be perfect for this book because we probably are all similar sort of crazy people.
00:22:55.519 --> 00:22:59.839
Um, it's called Pitch Anything by Orren, by Orn Claff, I think is his name.
00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:01.359
Orren Claff, yeah, for sure.
00:23:01.680 --> 00:23:04.960
It is the best sales book, I think, of all time.
00:23:05.359 --> 00:23:07.119
Um, but that's what I like.
00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:10.880
I like, I like being in a pitch and making a deal happen.
00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:19.279
Um, I think, and I challenge most entrepreneurs and agency owners, um, especially in my space, I go talk to a lot of agency owners about new business.
00:23:19.359 --> 00:23:27.119
Um, because, you know, I've sort of gotten a reputation for for not being the smartest guy in the world, but like being able to get new business and pitch accounts.
00:23:27.200 --> 00:23:30.000
So I've I've trained a lot of other people to go pitch.
00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:32.720
And um uh it's just fun.
00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:43.920
Like, and and and Orrin talks a lot about sort of a lot of things that are counterintuitive to how to pitch that that I think is it it takes time and takes confidence.
00:23:44.160 --> 00:23:52.400
Um, but I I just I I love he has such a different view than most of the other, you know, Sandler and you know, all the other guys that I've seen.
00:23:52.559 --> 00:24:10.640
Um, so yeah, I want to continue doing that, whether it's convincing agencies to, you know, come on board and and maybe roll some and do some earnouts, if it's convincing a new brand to trust us with their entire advertising account or a billboard operator to sell to us versus like a Lamar.
00:24:11.119 --> 00:24:13.440
Um, I want to continue looking at deals.
00:24:13.519 --> 00:24:18.640
Um, and I challenge everybody, you know, if you're an operator, like you got to be a deal person.
00:24:18.799 --> 00:24:23.039
Like you have, you can't hire someone to go do new business for your ad agency.
00:24:23.119 --> 00:24:24.880
That's a that's a kiss of death.
00:24:25.119 --> 00:24:27.680
Anyone that can do it has their own agency.
00:24:27.839 --> 00:24:32.559
Anyone who can't do it will be on your payroll for two years and then you're gonna get frustrated.
00:24:32.799 --> 00:24:39.519
You have to be the person that I think, especially as a small business operator, that is driving revenue for your company.
00:24:39.680 --> 00:24:47.920
Um, so um I try to hire oper like really strong operational people around me, what EOS would call implementers.
00:24:48.079 --> 00:24:53.279
And then I go think of myself as the hunter, I better go bring in some bacon, go bring in some deals.
00:24:53.359 --> 00:24:55.279
And I try to put pressure on myself to do that.
00:24:55.359 --> 00:25:02.160
So that's probably what I'm most excited about and probably most stressed and nervous about too, because it's a it's a big responsibility.
00:25:02.240 --> 00:25:10.240
And yeah, you know, if you're not bringing revenue and opportunities to your businesses, at least for me, then I I I feel like I'm letting people down.
00:25:10.640 --> 00:25:12.079
Dude, I oh my gosh.
00:25:12.160 --> 00:25:14.000
Yeah, we could be twin brothers, man.
00:25:14.319 --> 00:25:14.880
Check this out.
00:25:15.039 --> 00:25:21.200
So uh Orin Claff and I are connected on on LinkedIn and uh he wrote a follow-up book called Flip the Script.
00:25:21.279 --> 00:25:21.519
Okay.
00:25:21.599 --> 00:25:22.640
So it's oh shoot.
00:25:22.720 --> 00:25:23.359
I haven't heard this.
00:25:23.440 --> 00:25:23.920
This is awesome.
00:25:24.240 --> 00:25:25.279
It's it's pretty good.
00:25:25.599 --> 00:25:29.599
I don't think it's as good as he says, listen, look, guys, I think the world's evolving.
00:25:29.759 --> 00:25:35.039
Flip the script is uh is the updated you know evolution cycle of pitch anything.
00:25:35.200 --> 00:25:37.839
I still think pitch anything is his better work.
00:25:38.160 --> 00:25:39.200
Sorry, Warren.
00:25:39.839 --> 00:25:47.279
With that, let's talk about pitch anything for a second and you know, yeah, pitch into the croc brain, the mammalian brain, like in framing, right?
00:25:47.440 --> 00:25:52.160
What have you learned when it comes to getting new deals through that book?
00:25:52.720 --> 00:25:55.839
So um I'll I'll give a little plug here for for my book.
00:25:55.920 --> 00:26:02.640
I I have a book coming out um into this year with Fast Company called Brand Uprising.
00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:10.000
Uh and and I really think um, you know, marketing, psychology, and sales are tied together.
00:26:10.240 --> 00:26:20.240
And I think a lot of times, you know, especially five, 10 years ago when that book was was written, um, you know, it sales and marketing were sort of separate, right?
00:26:20.559 --> 00:26:28.559
Um, and I think today, you know, it needs to be more of an integrated strategy, which like what you're doing for podcasts, right, is is is genius, right?
00:26:28.720 --> 00:26:35.759
It's how do you build content around what you're doing that attracts a community of people?
00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:43.279
Um, you know, I I don't, and this is what my book's basically about is it's not about marketing, it's about building communities, right?
00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:53.200
If you can build a community of supporters and people and that and that organically grows by frankly, the best marketing's word of mouth.
00:26:53.359 --> 00:26:56.960
Um, that to me is really the new sales.
00:26:57.440 --> 00:27:01.599
And I bring up some crazy examples of cults because I think they're interesting.
00:27:01.759 --> 00:27:09.680
Um, and what what you're talking about, what Warren's talking about, is is um is is how people make decisions, right?
00:27:09.759 --> 00:27:12.559
You make decisions emotionally and you justify it with logic.
00:27:12.799 --> 00:27:16.720
What happens is in the back of your brain, there's the limbic system, right?
00:27:16.880 --> 00:27:19.599
And that's in a split second, and you decide, do I like that person?
00:27:19.680 --> 00:27:20.640
Do I want to work with that person?
00:27:20.720 --> 00:27:22.160
Am I going to buy this product?
00:27:22.240 --> 00:27:35.119
Um, and then it moves to the frontal cortex part of your brain, the front part of your brain, and that sort of like catalogs it and um what I call it almost like a card catalog of like that decision because of this data was the right one.
00:27:35.200 --> 00:27:37.519
But you already made it in your limbic system.
00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:39.599
Um and that's what I know from advertising.
00:27:39.680 --> 00:27:49.839
That's why we do the work we do with brands, is we understand the psychology of different demographics and how they basically don't buy a product or service.
00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:55.200
They join that community of people because of their values, because of all these things.
00:27:55.440 --> 00:28:04.480
Um, so I think what we're gonna see more so, especially in this world politically, is insane right now.
00:28:04.720 --> 00:28:06.559
Nobody trusts anybody, right?
00:28:06.720 --> 00:28:15.119
Like the Edelman Barometer report, which I talk about a lot, um, says we're at an all-time low of mistrust.
00:28:15.279 --> 00:28:20.079
We don't trust schools, we don't trust government officials, we don't trust celebrities, we don't trust family.
00:28:20.240 --> 00:28:23.519
Like we don't trust anybody for good reason, too, right?
00:28:23.599 --> 00:28:24.799
Like we've been burned.
00:28:25.039 --> 00:28:46.640
And so I think the the the people who are in sales who can think more like marketers and build communities will be way more successful, maybe not in their lead generation, but in their closing percentage, which is what what what ultimately matters, like having deeper, like it's like the Jerry Maguire world, right?
00:28:46.720 --> 00:28:50.880
Where Jerry has this epiphany, um, uh as he he says, less clients.
00:28:50.960 --> 00:28:55.119
I want deeper, more intimate relationships, not like more.
00:28:55.680 --> 00:29:01.039
Um, and I think that's what it's about, is is really just finding your people, building that community.
00:29:01.119 --> 00:29:12.799
And I think sales will will ultimately happen much better because the the community will trust each other, and that's why they've that's why they're gonna get together because there's so much other you know bullshit out there.
00:29:13.039 --> 00:29:13.680
Yeah.
00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:16.640
Dude, I love it, couldn't do it better myself.
00:29:16.960 --> 00:29:21.119
Um you got some tats on your arm.
00:29:21.759 --> 00:29:22.559
Yeah, yeah.
00:29:22.880 --> 00:29:30.000
What was your uh either what was your first tat or what was your most meaningful tattoo and why?
00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:32.000
Good, good question.
00:29:32.240 --> 00:29:49.920
Um, you know, I so I have a a buddy who I played uh high school football with, um, and uh he comes from a football family, uh, and just a great dude, um, gone through a ton, uh, you know, was from a tough neighborhood and you know, just went through a lot.
00:29:50.079 --> 00:30:06.799
Um, and uh he came over to my house, and before I had not a ton of tattoos, um, we sort of collaborated together and came up with a tattoo like at my house over like 20 hours just together, you know, sort of being creative and collaborating on this project.
00:30:07.039 --> 00:30:13.359
Um, and it's on my arm, on my on my right arm, it's a it's a Phoenix bird sort of rising out of the ashes.
00:30:13.519 --> 00:30:13.759
Yeah.
00:30:13.920 --> 00:30:22.319
Um, and to me, I think um I'm a big fan of just anything rebirth, you know, like there's always an opportunity for a new beginning.
00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:33.839
It could be every day, could be every year, could be every five years, like wherever you're at personally, um, I'm a big believer that like you you can completely change course and do something entirely different.
00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:36.960
And it's driven by, you know, your purpose in life.
00:30:37.039 --> 00:30:41.759
It's driven by um some sort of spiritual higher power.
00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:48.960
Um, and so it's something like I think for me, tattoos are like, again, I'm I I'm not the smartest kid in the world.
00:30:49.119 --> 00:30:50.720
Um, I like I need reminders.
00:30:50.799 --> 00:31:00.079
So they're to me, like all the tattoos I have on my body, which I have a lot and I want to get a lot more, they're just reminders of like, of like what is my purpose every day?
00:31:00.319 --> 00:31:03.279
What um what what do I really care about?
00:31:03.519 --> 00:31:07.119
Um, because you can lose track, you can get caught up in in stupid stuff.
00:31:07.279 --> 00:31:12.960
And so I I like to look at them and go, all right, like, you know, there's a little mini choice here.
00:31:13.119 --> 00:31:16.640
I'm gonna choose this one because that's more aligned with my purpose, kind of thing.
00:31:16.880 --> 00:31:17.680
Yeah, super cool.
00:31:17.759 --> 00:31:18.960
Thanks, Scott, for sharing that.
00:31:19.200 --> 00:31:22.640
As a deal guy, you have your peaks and your valleys, right?
00:31:22.799 --> 00:31:25.839
You have, you know, especially I'm I'm a I'm a deal guy, dude.
00:31:25.920 --> 00:31:30.799
I love deals, I love putting together opportunities, I love, I love sales, I love business, man.
00:31:30.880 --> 00:31:32.400
It's this is my purpose, right?
00:31:32.640 --> 00:31:32.960
Yep.
00:31:33.839 --> 00:31:42.880
But there's seasons like when I became an investment banker, like there's seasons where you don't make money or you have a lull.
00:31:43.519 --> 00:31:47.599
Confidence dips, like I I'm pretty good at it.
00:31:47.920 --> 00:31:51.920
But man, I've gone through a season where it's dry and then it keeps on going down and down.
00:31:52.079 --> 00:31:53.200
How do you bounce back?
00:31:53.279 --> 00:32:06.640
And you actually, this may be never happened to you before, so I might be asking the wrong dude, but how would you bounce back from a down point, from a lull, from a big failure, from a you know, from a collapse?
00:32:06.799 --> 00:32:07.839
Like how do you do it?
00:32:07.920 --> 00:32:09.759
Or how would you advise me to do it?
00:32:09.839 --> 00:32:12.240
Because I've been there 150 times.
00:32:12.559 --> 00:32:14.559
Yeah, it's a it's a great question.
00:32:14.720 --> 00:32:24.400
Um, and you know, I think there's definitely gonna be pain no matter what, you know, at some point in your life, um, you know, business-wise for sure.
00:32:24.559 --> 00:32:27.039
Um, and and there's gonna be slumps.
00:32:27.200 --> 00:32:34.000
Um, I I'm a big believer in in still getting as many at bats as possible, even if you're failing.
00:32:34.160 --> 00:32:41.039
Um, I remember one year in the advertising agency world, I think I pitched 200 accounts in a year, which is silly.
00:32:41.200 --> 00:32:42.720
It's that is it's dumb.
00:32:42.799 --> 00:32:43.839
It's not smart.
00:32:44.000 --> 00:32:54.079
Um, but what I did um during that year of pitching all those accounts is um I pitched a bunch of big state accounts and and big public record kind of accounts.
00:32:54.160 --> 00:33:01.359
And and if you lose one of those accounts, you can do a public records request and see all the proposals and see the scoring.
00:33:01.680 --> 00:33:08.079
So I I I would go into the office and they weren't happy about it, but I didn't care.
00:33:08.160 --> 00:33:12.480
I wanted more data and I wanted to figure out why I was losing so much.
00:33:12.720 --> 00:33:15.359
And so I looked at every agency's proposal.
00:33:15.440 --> 00:33:16.559
I looked at all the scores.
00:33:16.640 --> 00:33:19.680
I did this like four or five times of accounts I lost.
00:33:19.920 --> 00:33:32.640
And the amount of data I got on my competitors and the industry and where we were, you know, doing well in some areas and not doing well in other areas, um, it was really helpful.
00:33:32.799 --> 00:33:41.039
So I think sometimes the the losses help you to give you data to sort of figure out like where you need to change course.
00:33:41.279 --> 00:33:47.039
And I think ultimately for for me, it's always about like, okay, this isn't working.
00:33:47.200 --> 00:33:49.279
Um, where do I need to change course?
00:33:49.359 --> 00:33:53.119
And typically it should typically for me it's internal, right?
00:33:53.200 --> 00:33:56.720
There's something going internal that needs to make us shift.
00:33:56.880 --> 00:33:58.319
And I just don't know it yet.
00:33:58.480 --> 00:34:08.880
And so, you know, you get enough pain and enough data, you go, oh, you know what, this is why I'm losing accounts, or this is why I'm not getting deals, or this is why my marriage isn't great.
00:34:09.039 --> 00:34:14.159
Um, it it's it's this internal thing that I I need to sort of rectify.
00:34:14.320 --> 00:34:14.880
I don't know.
00:34:15.039 --> 00:34:16.079
That's for me.
00:34:16.400 --> 00:34:18.880
I have a 13-year-old daughter, a six-year-old daughter.
00:34:18.960 --> 00:34:24.000
I have a son too, but the girls listen to I don't know who it is, but it's it's me.
00:34:24.239 --> 00:34:26.079
Hi, I'm the problem, it's me.
00:34:26.320 --> 00:34:29.760
Yeah, maybe it's you, right?
00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:32.000
Maybe, you know, going through so man.
00:34:32.480 --> 00:34:41.840
Uh a lot of people wouldn't have the guts to look at their losses, but there's so much uh you can learn from the no's.
00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:44.639
You could learn a lot more from a failure and a no.
00:34:45.199 --> 00:34:46.800
Dude, you and I could have a long chat.
00:34:46.880 --> 00:34:50.320
I'm going through a uh a program at my church, a recovery program at my church.
00:34:50.480 --> 00:34:50.559
Okay.
00:34:50.800 --> 00:34:53.599
And you'd be showing me so much about me.
00:34:53.840 --> 00:34:54.159
Oh, yeah.
00:34:54.719 --> 00:34:59.840
Like, oh shoot, that's why I keep making these mistakes, dude.
00:35:00.079 --> 00:35:01.280
You and I could have a long chat about it.
00:35:01.440 --> 00:35:01.760
Oh, yeah.
00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:12.960
I I well, and especially like as an investment banker, as a deal person, you know, you lose an account, you know, you better be calling that person and begging them for feedback, like hard feedback.
00:35:13.039 --> 00:35:18.159
And most people don't want to give it to you, but that is so valuable when you get that to your point.
00:35:18.400 --> 00:35:22.239
Um, and then um, you know, you talk about recovery programs and 12-step.
00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:24.320
I have a whole chapter on that in my book.
00:35:24.480 --> 00:35:24.719
Yes.
00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:33.039
Because talk about one of the most successful communities of all time is 12-step and recovery programs.
00:35:33.199 --> 00:35:45.440
And so I think that like should honestly even be a model for people to look at that and go, man, how is that the only way people have got off addiction like in history is just that program.
00:35:45.760 --> 00:35:48.000
Well, maybe the community is pretty freaking strong.
00:35:48.079 --> 00:35:51.519
Like maybe we should dive into that more for our businesses.
00:35:51.760 --> 00:36:02.960
Uh, maybe it, you know, certainly the higher power thing helps, certainly steps help, but it's probably possible that the community is one of the biggest reasons for that being successful.
00:36:03.199 --> 00:36:03.840
Yeah, dude.
00:36:03.920 --> 00:36:04.559
All right.
00:36:05.280 --> 00:36:08.400
Uh when your book goes live, I want to sign copy.
00:36:08.880 --> 00:36:09.440
All right, absolutely.
00:36:09.599 --> 00:36:11.440
Please, absolutely, absolutely.
00:36:11.840 --> 00:36:13.039
I'll pre-order it.
00:36:13.119 --> 00:36:17.119
Uh I wrote another book too, and it was a complete flop and failure, right?
00:36:17.199 --> 00:36:20.480
So again, so this one, we'll see if this one's any better.
00:36:20.639 --> 00:36:22.719
Yeah, I'll I'll buy the non-flop one.
00:36:22.880 --> 00:36:24.239
But let's do this.
00:36:24.559 --> 00:36:25.920
Where could people all right?
00:36:26.000 --> 00:36:32.159
So kind of prep people on where where to look for it and uh where they could go to find you and follow your work.
00:36:32.480 --> 00:36:32.800
Sure.
00:36:32.960 --> 00:36:36.960
Um, I mean, the best probably is uh Instagram or LinkedIn.
00:36:37.039 --> 00:36:40.239
Um just at Scott Harkey on both.
00:36:40.480 --> 00:36:41.840
Um, probably the easiest.
00:36:41.920 --> 00:36:45.360
But you know, I'm on Twitter, TikTok, I'm on all, I'm on all this stuff.
00:36:45.599 --> 00:36:45.760
Cool.
00:36:45.920 --> 00:36:51.280
Um happy to connect with people, love if I can introduce you to somebody or just connect with people.
00:36:51.440 --> 00:37:00.480
Um, I try to be, you know, as uh accessible as possible and and making introductions to you know the right people, I think is so valuable in this world.
00:37:00.559 --> 00:37:05.199
And so yeah, or just love to follow your content and you know, follow some of mine.
00:37:05.280 --> 00:37:18.079
I'm I'm probably not doing as much as I I used to with the baby um and and some of the deal flow stuff, but um I I sort of love the world of you know making relationships and connections digitally.
00:37:18.159 --> 00:37:30.800
Like it's pretty, it's pretty cool um if you leverage it right and um and and find the you know, sort of again your tribe of people who kind of like we sort of think and breathe and eat and share some of the same values.
00:37:30.960 --> 00:37:31.599
So yeah.
00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:33.360
Word Scott, love you, dude.
00:37:33.440 --> 00:37:36.400
So glad to connect with you, ladies and gentlemen.
00:37:36.480 --> 00:37:37.760
As always, reach out to our guests.
00:37:37.840 --> 00:37:40.800
Say thanks for sharing your time, wisdom, experiences.
00:37:41.039 --> 00:37:44.159
You can follow their work, their contact information will be in the show notes.
00:37:44.320 --> 00:37:46.559
Heck, if you need an intro, just reach out to me.
00:37:46.719 --> 00:37:49.599
Uh, this has been another episode of the Deal Podcast.
00:37:49.679 --> 00:37:50.960
We'll see you all on the next one.
00:37:51.039 --> 00:37:51.440
Cheers.
