How Smart Dealmakers Turn Taxes Into a Strategic Advantage

Josh W: Good day everybody. Welcome back to The Deal podcast, Josh here, your host. Uh, what we wanted to do in this conversation is, you know, our group with FA Mergers spends a lot of time with mid-market companies looking to sell, looking to have an exit and, and private equity groups that are building these portfolios and.

What we wanted to do is have conversations around maybe some tax strategies or tax planning, things that could be done. So we have a conversation with David. We brought him in and we just want to hear his point of view. But let's start with this, David, why don't you give the audience, uh, a little bit about who you are and what you do.

David Podell: Yeah, so our, what our company does is we are. Very niche and specialized in the tax mitigation field, specifically in defined benefit and cash balance plans. And we're very unique that we're consulting in that space. So there are many different pieces there, and we bring all those pieces together and create these plans in different designs in a way where they can be implemented and be held successful.

Throughout time because a lot of things change with any kind of business. And my story is, I, I grew up in the advisory world, um, financial advisor for many, many, many years. And, uh, we continued to have a separate, totally separate, um, RIA. But um, we came, we came up with this because we were brought a case by CPA many years ago, and that CPA said, Hey, we have a joint client.

We want a large deduction here, as big as we could possibly get. How can we do it and how can we utilize these plans not knowing anything. I went out there, I knew everything about everything else except for that this is such a, a small, um, niche area that most people do not play in. I went out there and I looked around and I asked a whole, a whole host of people, which knew all different things, but I was getting very different answers.

From one to the next. And the more I dug in, the more I realized these are a bunch of different puzzle pieces all over the place and nobody has an idea to bring them together. And nobody has a one source of just kind of knowing things. And I just started learning and learning and, and with my team, we just grew into this to learn that all these different options and things that you can do and how to do them.

Different, uh, alternatives and things that can be used in plans and real estate and um, how it all kinda works together. But ideally giving that owner or partners a huge deduction in their taxes and paying less to the IRS. So essentially taking something as simple as a 401k plan that has limits. Or some other retirement plan, which we call on the shelf type plan that you can just get for employees and turning that into some massive tax strategy with a huge deduction.

The ability to put money away for owners and partners and could even create certain buyouts with partners with these plans. And there's different ways of doing that. But it was a whole new world. And, um, we do, we created a consulting company around that, which has been extremely beneficial and successful, uh, since we have where, um, we're probably one, one of the most well known in this space now, um, in, in, in this, this specific tax mitigation strategy.

Josh W: Okay, so as you, you got your start as a, as an advisor. You were approached one day by, you know, a CPA group, and they're looking for, you know, a, a group was looking for like this, this huge deduction. So this is where kind of the, the consultancy was birthed in this. Now how do you, how does your background as a advisor in this kind of, how do they merge and how does that help you, uh, serve the client and the client base?

David Podell: Yeah, that's a great question. 'cause we were, we were marketing always to CPAs and, uh, for us we felt that was the, the most comfortable thing. And as this evolved, we started getting a lot of calls from other advisors. Saying, Hey, I wanna do this for clients, or How can we use this to do this? Mm-hmm. Um, and from our take as a company, we don't work with one third party administrator or actuary.

We gather the client's information, we gather what the ideas, what we're trying to do. We sift through multiple entities. We look to see where there's employees, where there's not, and ideally try to figure out the best design. We'll go out to the marketplace and get multiple proposals and really dive into things to find out what's the best way and most efficient way of putting this together.

This is not, this is something that's written in the tax code, um, for interpretation. So every third party administrator or actuary that looks at these things are looking at this in a different way and creating a different calculation, different design. That's not like the traditional retirement plans that are just there to make for employees.

And that's why this falls into that deductible space. So for your audience, Josh, um, you know, they're successful in some way or they're building or they're looking to exit or, or, or by competitors and all those things, and. This really does come into play, uh, from an increase in valuation as well as the ability to do certain buyouts with partners or to just have a large deduction in a, for, uh, a successful company that is paying too much in taxes.

So there's different ways of shifting things around and who's, you know, what we're, we're used to and we've seen. Clients with multiple K ones and income from different sources and how that comes into play. And this is really meant for those that have tax problems. And I, when I say problems, I don't mean to owe the IRS, I mean are just paying a lot in taxes and wanna pull another lever in that tax code, a legal one that's been around a long time.

That's not shady in any way. To benefit themselves and their partners. 

Josh W: So they find a, you know, a private company, they find themselves in a situation where they're, they keep striking these big checks to, you know, the IRS and they, they come to you guys maybe through a CPA relationship and they say, we're looking for ways where maybe where we can add more value to our employees, add more value to our team, add, do something here instead of just striking a big check Right.

To, to the IRS, like. Is, is that kind of like the, the, the spot where most people reach out and connect with you? 

David Podell: That's exactly it. They're going to their CPA and saying, Hey, we, we just paid all this money. Why do we, we did all these things. We did this restructuring, or we bought this, or we did that. You know, what else can we do?

Mm-hmm. We, we come at the, what else can we do? Stage where they. That money is comfortable, cash flow is good, it's there, and they wanna know what else they can do. Now if there is some type of exit or something, this becomes even more beneficial when you have a company and you wanna pull out more pre-tax dollars for yourselves.

And when I say yourselves, I'm talking about partners or owners. This is the best way to do that. And you're deferring money for the for the future, obviously, but. When there are profits in a company, you don't want to take 'em out and pay taxes. Here's a way to do that on a pre-tax basis. And it also, w we, we know with business owners, um, and entrepreneurs, where is most of that net worth?

It's in the business, right? For sure. It's not, it's generally not anywhere else. You know, there could be some type of outside investments, but it's always the reinvesting in the business continuously. This is a way that allows the business to, or that owner to create some personal net worth by putting money aside, having the business put money aside and it's getting allocated toward them, but they can eventually move to their IRA at some point in the future.

Uh, just like a, you know, a 401k would, these are just massive limits that, in, in relation to that, that like a 401k or something like that. 

Josh W: Okay. But it allows you 

David Podell: to diversify and build and really build net worth outside of your own business. 

Josh W: Why do you think that someone would want to a business owner, why do you think that they would want to build net worth outside of their business?

Like talk, talk to us through the strategies and the thought process there. Diversification. 

David Podell: Not having all your eggs in one basket, right? When you're building, when you're a builder and you're an entrepreneur and you're, um, you know, in. Or, or doing any kind of acquisitions or looking to merge a company.

Um, generally it's blood, sweat, tears, money, all going into the same place. And, uh, without diversifying, like, what if that doesn't, what if something doesn't work out in that exit? You're banking on everything in your own business, right? So having that diversification and having net worth. Good for, not just good for you, but it's, it's also good for your personal balance sheet.

Josh W: Okay. So then what happens, you know, so they go through your strategies and how does that, how does that affect the, you know, pending exit, whether, you know, they die, you know, everybody has an exit in their business, whether they die, whether they try to succession plan, hand it off to their kids or, or external or an IPO, you know, like how does, how does your strategies work towards the exits?

David Podell: We really like to be involved and, and get these things set up at least, uh, or I should say the latest end would really be around five years before that happens, right? We were looking for five years of funding. Um, if someone's gonna be exiting next year in the next two years, it, it's very difficult in doing these, uh, it's doable.

We've even set up plans and structured plans in a way where the exit funds can be used. To put into these plans to help with taxes depending on how that exit occurs. And that's why we like the CPAs involved 'cause we get an idea of all those numbers that we need and then we move backwards to find those solutions for a business exit.

What was the other part of the question? 

Josh W: Yeah, no problem. So like, so how does this impact, how does this impact the exit? So you, you're saying that maybe some of these funds can be rolled back into, you know, the, the plan exit proceeds back into the plan. Like, what about, you know, if they are doing an IPO or if they're gonna go, you know, straight private equity sale.

David Podell: Yeah. So generally when looking at number, when, when looking at what we found with, when there's valuations that are being done, um, and someone's really looking at whether they're, they're raising money or going IPO or pe, whatever it is, um, this becomes a number. Let's just say an owner's putting away a half a million dollars a year into this plan.

Just, you know, each, maybe each partner, maybe just, just one owner, whatever it is. Um, it shows that when, when someone's looking at the business, it shows that an additional half a million dollars every single year can go to owner's compensation or can go somewhere else. So it does make that business more profitable because on top of just a W2 that may be the owner's taking, or K one and profits, whatever it is, there is that extra money that's now coming back and increasing the value of the business.

Josh W: Okay. So what kind of, as you're going through these plans, what kind of scrutiny have you seen? You know, maybe come from the IRS or maybe even from the, the CPAs, because you know, many business owners might go, Hey, I've got a CPA, I don't need you guys. Right. So kind of what, what are some of the thoughts, uh, between maybe the IRS scrutiny or scrutiny that comes from, I have my own CPA.

We don't need a tax strategist. 

David Podell: Yeah, and we. We don't overlap on any of those cases. Yeah, on any of those situations. Like we're not doing taxes, we're not giving tax advice. Okay. We're working alongside the CPA and that's why we're generally brought in by the CPA on this specific mitigation strategy.

Mm-hmm. So. Just like if someone's doing cost segregation on a building, right? It's generally not the CPA that's doing it. They're bringing in a company that does that study and takes care of it for them. That's the same place where we are being brought in either from the owner, we want the introduction to the CPA and we wanna be on that same page immediately.

We don't generally like to talk directly to a client about a situation and then bring a CPA in later 'cause they go. Wait a second, this was a tax strategy. Why wasn't I involved? Or, you know, let's just not do this. You know? Um, so we, we don't overlap in those cases at all. Uh, we are a piece that fits a void when we're, when they're looking for strategy, when they're looking for bigger deductions.

Mm-hmm. And. And they, they need to involve an expert because there are so many moving parts and complexities to what we do. And we also make it very simple. Like our proposals are three pages on purpose. So we take out all the complexity, all the stuff that would get somebody, you know, uh, into the weeds, and we make it very simple and things that they need to focus on and how it fits them on purpose.

Josh W: Interesting. All right. Totally get it. When it comes to, you know, a company that would benefit from this, like what, what size of the company, what's too small and maybe even what's too large for this? 

David Podell: Yeah, I'll give the biggest example. We did a, you know, a, a temp agency. It was like thousands of employees, and we got the owner like 85% of the benefit and a half a million dollar contribution.

So. This was a huge, huge, you know, census, the demographics of the companies matter. Now that's an outlier that I wanna give an example of why it makes sense to look at no matter what. Uh, generally we love 50 employees or less. Um, there are different ways and classes that you are sectoring out of employees and things that you can do.

This is an owner's benefit plan. This is not an employee benefit plan, so employees have to be taken care of in the plan in a certain way. But the bulk of this benefit, when we're brought into it, we're looking for designs and we're looking to create a proposal for somebody and a company that tilts the scale for the owner or partners.

It's the taxpayers that we're really trying to design for. Not really as an employee benefit plan, there's enough things on the employee benefit side that could be done like deferred compensation, executive bonus, 4 0 1 Ks. That's outside of our realm. Got it. We're there to take care of the, the owners. 

Josh W: 50 employees or less owner.

This is an owner benefit plan. This is for the, the, the people striking the checks and, and paying the bills. Uh, what, what size revenue does this make sense for and are there certain states that this doesn't work in? Yeah. 

David Podell: Working. Uh, so statewise, we've done, we've done every state. It's like, it doesn't matter.

Um, it, it's surprising to me, and it always shocks me how many cases that we get from states that have zero taxes, like Florida. But there's so many businesses that are profitable and they go, we don't wanna pay taxes. You would think that ideally, most of our plans would come from the New Yorks and Californians, but there a lot from Florida, a lot from Texas.

So, uh, no, it's not state specific. That doesn't matter if you're a profitable business. Mm-hmm. Paying the IRS, it, it, it works, um, size wise, so. Instead of saying a, using a specific company, we like to use the number of $150,000, and we say that's kind of the minimum contribution that we think you should be putting into a plan or looking at a plan like this because there's different resources and things involved.

From a cost standpoint, you don't wanna be putting away something that gets close to, well, I could have just had a 401k and it would've been a lot cheaper, so. It's really someone, it's a type of business that can put away $150,000 that sometimes it think one 50 up to a million or a little bit higher.

We've done plans, some plans over, plans over a million, but ideally, uh, you know, if you, if even if you took that number and you said, take something in the middle, like $600,000 and said, well, you're putting away $600,000 every year, um, you're essentially. Creating a three to $4 million retirement plan for yourself, and you're working backwards on the funding.

And that funding could be, well, I'm gonna fund my retirement plan $150,000 this year. Next year we had a great year. I'm gonna put in 350,000, or, we had a phenomenal this year. This year I'm gonna put in $700,000 and next year I wanna put in zero. You have that flexibility. As long as we understand what the intentions are and we can design around it.

Josh W: So, so let's just say we create a plan and it's a five-year plan, right? But let's just say, you know, we we're having some great years, we're having year over year growth, and then a COVID happens, right? So there's a dip in revenue, major dip in revenue, and we have uncertainty of what the future holds. Uh, how does the, how does that kind of uncertainty in the market affect these kind of plans?

David Podell: Yeah, Josh, at that point, what we did is we did a lot of freezing of plans and what's that's called this freezing the accrual, meaning they don't have to put money in. Let's stop the accrual, let's stop, let's stop contributions. Let's get ahead of it. So something like that happens. Yeah. We wanna stop, we wanna do a freeze on the plan.

It doesn't go anywhere. It's still there. It's still, but maybe it takes three to four years to get back to where we need it to be. So let's put a freeze on. Let's not fund this thing until it becomes time to, but throughout that time, each year, we wanna under through what, throughout the year, we wanna understand what is your intention going forward, because we can close this at some point, or maybe we wanna unfreeze it and.

Throw a bunch more in how can we, you know, create the calculation And we work with different actors and TPAs in doing that. 

Josh W: So when it comes to, so you're kind of a B two B2B business, right? You work strategically with CPA groups and they, you know, serving their client and you come in, you bring a, another tool to the, to the table, right?

So when it comes to this kind of business model, when working with CPAs, what have you found is a good way to, you know, for other B2B deal makers out there, what are some good strategies that you've used to create those kind of relationships with CPAs to go in? I mean, they might view you as competition or that you're just trying to get to our clients?

Like what are, what are some of the things you found there? 

David Podell: Yeah. We're very, uh, target targeted in our marketing. 

Josh W: Yeah. 

David Podell: Um, you know, we, we, we, we go, we, we go to their conferences. We, we speak to them directly on their, you know, platforms. So we're very targeted to them. Um, somebody had asked me years ago, why don't you just get a CPA license?

And I'm like. Well, just, just so you know, you can talk tax language, and I said that would be such a detriment because they would think that, I do taxes. We, we don't do taxes, we don't get involved in taxes. We don't even give tax advice. We focus specifically on all the knowledge and wisdom, and that is in, in this space that most people have no idea about and don't wanna know.

They would just wanna know. Where to go to get these things in the best place and know that there's a trusted source that they can work with, that they feel good about. Um, we get a lot of, you know, for, for your listeners, like, you know, we, we, we would love to speak to anybody that wants to meet with us.

It's not that we need to go to the CPA. What we wanna do is we wanna talk to them first, have conversations, find out what their, what's going on, their targets, all that stuff. Then we wanna go and bring in their CPA to talk to them about the deduction and why we're going through this. And the only reason for that is we don't wanna get to the end of a cycle where we really proposed everything, did all this work, got to it, and then have a CPA or tax advisor come in and go, yeah, you shouldn't be doing this.

Right? We want, we wanna know their objections upfront and their questions, and have them as that partner in saying, yes, you should be doing this. 

Josh W: So, so you, your value proposition to the customer, obviously, right? Like, if they want a deduction, they want a owner benefit, right? So for the customer, they're like, man, this sounds, this sounds good, but what is the value proposition?

Why would a, why would a CPA listen and, and be interested in doing this with you guys? Yeah. 

David Podell: So for them, that's a, that's another good question for them, the benefit for them is they need to go to their clients and add value. If they don't, in general, what we're seeing, especially in that industry, is they're becoming the tax prep person.

Like, send me your stuff. I'll take care of it, I'll file it, I'll do it, and I'll tell you what you owe and here's how. Here's some things we can do this year that maybe you save you a few bucks. Right? When I say a few bucks, maybe it's 10,000, maybe it's 50, where they're gonna come to us and say. I wanna save my client 250,000.

I wanna save 'em a half a million dollars in taxes every single year. Like that's where we're gonna get brought in. And in that world we see so many of these CPAs, the the ones that are innovating and getting smarter, they are changing their practices to do advisory work. And when I say that is they wanna be involved on a monthly or quarterly basis with their clients.

And they wanna go and bring strategies that are cutting edge and that are out of the box, and that's where they're involving us. 

Josh W: So with the kind of groups that you work with, are there any industries where it's probably not a fit? So 50 employees or less owner benefit plan where they can, you know, they have, they either have cash in the bank, one 50 to 1 million, or they're about to strike a check to the IRS for that kind of amount, and they wanna explore this.

Are there any industries where this just would not work? 

David Podell: I have not seen an industry where it didn't work. Um, there are industries where they have high turnover, so let's think like a restaurant group. Oh, for sure. Where you have tons of turnover. You, you know, you don't have a waiter who stays there for eight years, 10 years generally.

Um, those benefit the actual owners. So they're, they're, when people leave or get terminated at a certain point there's vesting schedules. They know they might not vest into the plan. So the owners are walking away with an efficiency or a portion that's theirs of a much higher rate. They're getting those funds because they did have higher turnover.

Mm-hmm. So we've done all different industries. It's, you know, we've seen some crazy stuff right now from, um. You know, uh, a, a gamer, uh, a kid who, who was a gamer, maybe making a million dollars in, uh, in playing video games and getting sponsors right to, um, you know, the social influencer, you know, social influencers online, making tons of money.

Um, industry, this used to be primarily known in the fields of medical, so you had tons of doctors doing it. Law lawyers were doing it, and there were two reasons for that. One was consistent cash flow and income. It was just consistent and it was high. They had enough. Well, now we're seeing that in tons of other industries, especially with all the, in the entrepreneurial space.

Josh W: What about for solopreneur? So someone who, you know, like maybe the gamer where they have a bunch of maybe consultants, but they're high income, you know, high net worth, and they're looking for, you know, we make all this money. I don't have a lot of expenses. Right? Maybe it's a crypto guy who knows. 

David Podell: Those are the best because we don't have to worry about employees.

That in those, in those cases. General, there's not employees that are there if they're getting 10 90 nines from different places or k ones from different places. Mm-hmm. Um, even the, even the person that maybe has a job but has like a huge real estate portfolio on the side, there's ways that things can be done where they can create their own.

So, um, you know, there, there is a lot of side business type things that we've seen, um, in the real estate, real estate and, and entrepreneurial side. But to answer your question, the solopreneurs are great. Yeah. 

Josh W: Now, you don't have to name drop, but have you worked with any athletes or movie stars or celebrities or something?

You know, they, high net worth not a lot of expenses. They're not running a company. They don't have their own. LLC or whatever. How does that work? Yeah. You 

David Podell: know, we have gotten some cases in the past, none that have gone through. So we have been, you know, referred some cases in the past that we've put together and proposed, and none that that went through.

Um, there we recommend a five-year commitment. It doesn't have to be the same dollar amount. That is the most important takeaway that I would give. It does not have to be the same amount, but there's, but you don't want to close this plan after five years. So sometimes people have a problem with that. You know, that, with that type of, uh, commitment, I don't wanna keep this open for five years.

Um, it's a retirement plan. The IRS doesn't want to give you a massive deduction. Have you put a whole bunch of money in and then go and say, yeah, um, I'm done. I closed the business, I disappeared, whatever it is. You can get out, uh, you know, if you retired, sold, did any of these things. Those are credible triggers.

Those are life triggers that are not an issue. They're not going to be an issue. But, um, I think sometimes if there's anything like, you know, in the entertainment space that hasn't gone through, the only thing I could point to is, uh, you know, having to have a plan open for five years. 

Josh W: What about age? Right?

I'm a young, I'm a young guy. I'm 43. Like, if, if I went through this process, you know, like let's just say I qualify and I, and I, and I'm putting that money in, like, do, are there any restrictions on when I can exit or when I can start, you know, pulling back from this plan? 

David Podell: Yeah. So someone in their forties, it's great for, um, you're gonna put money in for a certain amount of time when that plan closes, whether you'll continue to do it through retirement or not.

Let's just say six years from now, you decide to close it, or four years from now you decide to close it. Uh, you're just moving it to your IRA and then you can go and defer it and invest in any way you like and do whatever you want for, you know, between, to that time and age 60, you're just gonna have a large IRA, you could even do Roth conversions and start to move some of it to, to Roth.

And you know, over time, because you're at a good age to do that. 

Josh W: Yeah, I, I know we're, we're really, I'm, I'm drilling you on these kind of questions because I think, I think that the mechanics of these things are, uh, something that my audience in the community that I work with, they're, they're interested in these kind of questions and they would love to ask these kind of questions.

Um, how do you, how do you think AI will affect the future of the tax code or tax returns, the world of CPAs or tax consultants? 

David Podell: That's a good question. I was just asked this on another podcast recently, um, that had to do with the, it was a tax podcast for advisors and, um, I had said, I don't see any place where this takes over any of this.

There's just so much information. Um, and I don't mean that the AI can't handle it, but it's so customized. It's so customized and there's so much handholding throughout that even if a system went and said, okay, here's everything you need to do and here's how you can do it, and here's where to go, you still have to go somewhere.

Valuations calculations, uh, is it the right third party administrator? How do you feel about the design? Do you know that if there's another design that's better than yours out there, have you looked at it? Um, I haven't. Seen anything or, I don't think AI is coming after this at all because it is so specialized.

Josh W: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So as you're going through, you know, you got your two different groups that you've built up, like your young guy, what does your future look like with the, the businesses? What, what? Where's your vision go? 

David Podell: Yeah. Our vision is to continuously educate in the industry on this. And be that go-to source, um, for this as, as the expert and main specialist and known as that in this, in this space.

And continue to just always, always bring in new referrals and new plans that we can build upon and, and work with. We just love doing it. Love the fact that it's one of these things that no one else is doing and no one else knows about. Or wants to do. So it's one, it's like, it, it, you start learning about it and looking into all the options like I did many years ago and go, oh, there's just so much here.

This is way too, like, I need, I need guidance. And that's why this is consulting. 

Josh W: Yeah. So David, that, I mean, you brought up a, an interesting point. If people are looking at this and you know, nobody else is doing this. Right. If nobody else is doing this as a service provider, why are you coming on podcast shows to talk about it and educate the community on it.

David Podell: Um, the only the people that are doing this, that are involved, that are not in our, our space are the ones that we like. The, the actual, the, the actuaries and the third party administrators that we outsource to. We have them do certain things and they have their designs, right. And they're the, and, and they do this, and you can go directly to those people.

And a lot, a lot of times people do to do that, where that missing piece is. Is they're giving you their one specific design, so you don't know what else is out there or if that's best for you or if it's even fitting. You just don't know what you don't know. Um, the other thing is they're not really meant to consult.

They are very good at giving you an illustration, telling you what it does, and asking you for tax information every year. So it's input in, input out. Mm-hmm. So that entire middle piece is totally is missing. So the reason we do a lot of marketing and are on podcasts and do all these things is because there's a need and we just want the world to know, like, you have questions or you have an interest in this.

We are that source. 

Josh W: Cool. Well, David, super thrilled to, you know, have these conversations with you and, and. What we'll do is we'll put your information in the show notes. So if there's someone in the audience who has questions and they would like to reach out to you, we'll put that in the show notes, right?

So they can reach out to you directly and ask those questions. I don't know all this stuff, that's why we have guests on so we can learn collectively as a community and share information about deals and, and how things are done, right? So we'll do that. But there's, during this interview, we have probably what time for maybe one more question.

What question should I have asked you during this interview that I screwed up and did not ask you? 

David Podell: Hmm. I mean, you asked about industry that you asked about a good client profile. Um, I think we pretty much covered everything except for one of the things that we didn't get into that I know your audience is gonna have questions about is what can I put in this Right.

And, um. My answer to that is it, it, it's a long, longer answer, but I will say that anything can go in this plan as far as assets. Certain assets fit better than others. So your audience is gonna look at this and say, well, what if I don't wanna put traditional stocks, bonds, mutual funds, ETFs in there? Can I put real estate?

Can I put private equity, private credit, hedge funds, um, you know, anything in there that I would like to put in these plans. And they are combination plans. So generally there is profit sharing, there is 4 0 1 involved in it, and then there's the DB side, and some of those assets fit on one side versus the other and can be used.

Um, so there's a lot behind what can I actually put in this plan to make it successful or to put the investments in that I like or I wanna have in there. And, and that's a whole nother topic, but. That is something that your listeners are definitely thinking about. Like, Hey, I, I wanna stick real estate in here.

Can I do that? Get a massive deduction and defer. And there are ways. So, you know, it's that, that's really the, the other piece of this, that we wanna have deeper conversations with anyone that's interested. 

Josh W: Got it. So, I mean, I have more questions, but what I'll do is I'll, I'll ping you and we, maybe we'll get you come back to do some maybe rapid fire questions in the, in the future, David.

But, uh, great having you on the show. Uh, always love learning new things about, uh, strategies, tax strategies and, and revenue strategies. So thanks for coming on the show Fellow deal makers in the audience. Our guest information will be in the show notes below, so you can reach out to them directly, find them on their, on LinkedIn or on their website.

Reach out to them now if you have, uh, if you're a deal maker out there and you'd like to come on the show and talk about your specific deal types or investments or how you do things, head over to the Deal Podcast, fill out a quick form and maybe get you on the show next. Until then, we'll talk to you all on the next episode.

Cheers, everyone.