April 1, 2026

No Operator, No Deal — How PE Firms Find the Right CEO with Travis Hann

Some PE deals don't fall apart in due diligence — they fall apart because no one can find the right CEO. Travis Hann has built his firm around solving exactly that problem. If the operator doesn't exist — or can't be found — the deal doesn't happen. Travis Hann is the Co-Founder and Managing Partner of Pender & Howe, a fast-growing boutique executive search firm serving mid-sized companies and investors across North America. He also serves on the board of Kestria, the world's largest glob...

Travis Hann is the Co-Founder and Managing Partner of Pender & Howe, a fast-growing boutique executive search firm serving mid-sized companies and investors across North America. He also serves on the board of Kestria, the world's largest global executive search alliance — a network of 42 boutique firms operating in 42 countries. Since founding the firm in 2019, Travis has helped private equity sponsors, family offices, and venture capital investors find the mission-critical operators who make deals possible. For investor-backed businesses, the stakes aren't just high — the deal itself is often contingent on the search. Travis has been assessing executive leaders every month for over a decade, and in this episode, he pulls back the curtain on exactly how that process works: how he spots inconsistency, why a polished resume means almost nothing, what it takes to find an operator willing to put their own capital on the line, and why the CEO role today demands a completely different toolkit than it did five years ago.

🎯 What We Cover:

Why some PE deals are entirely contingent on finding the right CEO or operator
What separates a standard executive search from a deal-dependent one
The consistency framework Travis uses to assess C-suite candidates across multiple touchpoints
Why charisma can be a red flag — and how to see past it to real competency
The Top Grading methodology and why it stress-tests candidates better than traditional interviews
How to find operators willing to co-invest and put their own capital in the deal
When PE firms and investors should engage a search firm — and why earlier is almost always better
Deal vs. team: how to decide which one you're actually betting on in a services business
Why AI-polished resumes have changed the talent assessment game
What the modern CEO role looks like today vs. five years ago — and what the new toolkit requires
The subtle behavioral signals Travis watches for that most hiring processes completely miss
How Pender & Howe grew from a spin-off of 4 people to a 20-person North American firm

🤝 Connect with Travis Hann: 🌐 https://www.penderhowe.com 💼 https://www.linkedin.com/in/travishann

💼 Thinking About a Transaction? FA Mergers helps founders, investors, and business owners navigate the full M&A process — from valuation to close. If you're exploring a sale, acquisition, or capital raise, let's talk. 🔗 https://www.famergers.com/

🎙️ Follow The Deal Podcast: 🌐 https://www.thedealpodcast.com/ 💼 https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshuadwilson/ ▶️ https://www.youtube.com/@dealpodcast

DISCLAIMER The Deal Podcast is for informational and educational purposes only. Nothing discussed constitutes investment advice, a solicitation, or a recommendation to buy or sell any security. Always consult a licensed professional before making financial or investment decisions.

00:00 - Ch 1 — Welcome & What Pender and Howe Does

01:56 - Ch 2 — The Origin Story: Spin-Off to 20-Person Firm

05:22 - Ch 3 — Why Investor-Backed Deals Create High-Stakes Searches

06:25 - Ch 4 — The Adrenaline of a Deal-Dependent CEO Search

11:01 - Ch 5 — How Travis Assesses Talent: The Consistency Framework

13:57 - Ch 6 — First Impressions, Gut Instinct, and the Silent Test

23:49 - Ch 7 — Finding Operators Who Will Co-Invest in the Deal

26:25 - Ch 8 — When Should PE Firms Engage a Search Firm?

31:47 - Ch 9 — Deal vs. Team: What Are You Actually Betting On?

33:36 - Ch 10 — Why Resumes Don't Matter (And What Does)

40:24 - Ch 11 — How CEOs and Operators Have Changed in 5 Years

42:43 - Ch 12 — Wrap-Up and How to Connect with Travis

WEBVTT

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Good day everybody.

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Welcome back to the Deal Podcast.

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This episode, this episode, everything we do has been powered by FA mergers.

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We sell businesses.

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Especially that lower to mid-market businesses.

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We love those kind of deals.

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If you've got one of those deals, let's talk about it here on the show, or you can just have our team take a look at it and give our thoughts to it.

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The dealpodcast.com, fill out a quick form.

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Now let's dive into today's episode with Mr.

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Travis Travis.

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You are in the world of deal making every day, but you do it with and through people.

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Kind of give us an idea of who you are and what you do.

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Awesome.

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Thanks for having me, Josh.

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Happy to be here.

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I am the founder of Pender and How and we are a human capital advisory firm.

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So majority of our days are spent finding executive leaders for investor-backed businesses, whether that be on the private equity side, family office side, or venture capital side.

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We are the type of company that investors or operators call when they need a new director, vice president, C-suite leader, or are even structuring their board of directors.

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So that's where we play.

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Lower to mid-market is also kind of our bread and butter in terms of company sizes that we work with.

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We're industry and functional agnostics.

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So we've built the firm with a philosophy that we've attracted partners with very specialized industry experience.

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And that's who leads our searches depending on what industry or investor kind of category is calling us.

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But that that is what our firm does.

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Yeah.

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We're going to get into the specifics of what you do and for who.

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But I'm always I always love to hear the the origin story because you've had some great milestones in terms of growth, in terms of your own acquisitions and mergers and all these like exciting things that I don't know how much you're you're able to talk about, but kind of give us your origin story and what led you up to today.

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Yeah, definitely.

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We are um originally a spin-off uh story is how the business was created and kind of where it is today.

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So um I I built the uh the company with my co-founder back in 2019.

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We were a part of a larger national firm at the time.

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Um, and uh and we really wanted to focus on the executive uh kind of C-suite leadership realm within terms of how we do our recruitment expertise in a boutique manner.

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And um, you know, we had a couple of ideas of how that could be a little bit different than what the market has to offer.

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Um, so I had approached leadership at the time of that firm that we were with to kind of create a subsector category within that business to see if we can carve something out.

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Um and uh long and behold, that is very much what we did.

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And uh 2020 was kind of the year that things were properly rolled out, and you know, it was an eventful year as we all remember, kind of Q1, Q2 of what happened then.

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Um in some ways, it was kind of a blessing in disguise because it was actually a great year to build, and um that there was a lot of great companies that came out of that as there typically are in in kind of down markets or um you know unusual markets.

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And in 2022, we spun the business off to be uh completely alone and separate from the organization that it was originally built in.

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Um at the time in 2022, we were probably four or five people, and that kind of stayed for the you know the year after, I would say.

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Um and uh today we're we're 20 people across the country and very much on a growth journey to continue kind of doubling down on that growth of what we've accomplished over the last kind of call of 12 to 18 months.

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Um in 2022, we were picked up by the world's largest executive search alliance.

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So we exclusively represent them in Canada and the US.

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Um and there's 42 uh booty firms in 42 different countries now around the world that kind of make up that global umbrella.

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And then I sit on the board of directors for that global umbrella.

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So um that's kind of you know the story of how it got started and where we are.

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Um the the firm name Pender and Howe comes from a very popular intersection in in Vancouver, Canada, actually.

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And um when we were creating the the firm name inside of the other organization, we were trying to find a way to connect the two businesses without it being obvious.

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Um and way back in 1983, that firm was actually founded on the corner of Pender and Howe Street in Vancouver.

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So that's the way that we kind of tied the two stories together.

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And uh everyone always asks me who whose last name is Pender or how, because it doesn't exist on the company website, but uh that that's where the name came from.

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Man, I love it.

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Yeah, I was wondering the same thing.

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You stole one of my questions.

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Is is how did because it sounds like you know, it sounds very professional, it sounds very, you know, like a group that would work with a uh a PE firm.

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And it's you know, I was thinking it sounds like either a law firm or some type of fund.

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But uh yeah, brilliant.

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It's two streets.

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Um that's it.

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Yeah, no, it's great.

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Um so how did you choose this niche with you know PE backed companies, investment group, you know, whether it's a VC, PE group, family office?

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How did you how did you kind of land into serving that community?

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Yeah, it's a good question.

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I mean, it's not exclusively all that we we do, Josh.

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In fact, my first CEO search was for uh a publicly traded uh company.

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So um, you know, you know, I you you kind of fall into different niches, I mean, through experience and through through networks.

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Um and you know, very much so uh one of my first deals was with a family office actually from Asia that was looking for a CEO in the US and successfully you know accomplished that project.

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And that that kind of led to the next introduction with another um you know mid-market private equity firm.

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And and um, you know, one thing kind of leads to another.

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But what what really is kind of the common denominator there is investor-backed businesses have a really um big stress on talent, right?

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There are a lot of deals that are contingent upon whether or not the investor can find a new CEO or an operator to run that business, right?

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So the stakes are very high.

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And quite frankly, the adrenaline as a search professional when you're tasked to find that um is a whole different feeling of uh stress and accomplishment when you're able to place a successful operator because it's not just a placement, right?

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You're actually bringing together an entire deal that was contingent upon you finding that individual.

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So it's just a very different line of work comparable to uh you know recruiting for um you know a larger conglomerate that may be publicly traded or um you know is privately held.

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The stakes are just a lot larger and it becomes a little bit of an addiction, quite frankly.

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Oh, an addiction.

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I love talking about those.

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Uh how how when you when you talk about why did why did you describe it as that?

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And then talk us through why you said that.

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Well, well, the stakes are higher, right?

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And I think some people enjoy that, and some people definitely would not, right?

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And when you have um an a search, you know, hypothetically speaking, uh a CEO search, right?

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Where you have a private equity deal that's going to happen, but only if we can find a CEO that we can bet on.

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Otherwise, you know, we're pulling our uh we're pulling our interest in the deal.

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Um, you know, now you have the stress of you got to go find a CEO.

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So you have the talent side of bringing that all together, but then you have an entire fund slash deal team that is relying on you to bring that together, right?

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So you've got pressure from kind of almost two to three different um lines, which the if you enjoy stress and you enjoy you know high stake environments for for making deals, which I do, um, it's a just a completely different ballgame.

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And then you compare it to a search that's a little bit more cookie-cutter, um, you kind of almost get bored in a way, right?

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So um there's different uh um you know, different strokes for different folks, and and my my preference is to be kind of in that in a high stake environment, and and that's very much what that is.

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What?

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Like talk to us about your upbringing or some of the things that led up to because I I too gravitate towards these kind of like adrenaline larger deals.

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I've been in venture capital private equity, I was a firefighter medic, I wrestled alligators, like I I a lot of the things that I've done have been a little bit more on the exciting side of it.

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And like if I go into a large organization and I have to clock in, clock out, follow a system and process, I might not make it there very long.

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So kind of walk me through what what led you to discover this about yourself.

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Yeah, I I've also never clocked in and clocked yet.

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I don't think I'd work.

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Um I don't think they'd want to keep me, quite honestly.

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Um so uh for for me, you know, Josh, I I think the the DNA and the roots for me just goes back to my my upbringing, which is sports, right?

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And um sports in general, I think are a great foundation for business leaders.

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Um and uh my sport in particular was golf.

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And golf, you know, some people may look at that and be like, well, that's not the most adrenaline-driven sport.

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And um, I would beg to differ a little bit because you know, if you if you compare it to a hockey, a soccer, a team sport, um, I actually think sports like golf and tennis that are individual sports have greater stakes because the margin for error is well, there is no margin for error.

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You're the only person that can actually execute the shot.

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Um, it's un you're unable to hide on a field or a rink um where there's 10 other you know players around you per se, right?

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So for me, golf was my upbringing.

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That was my competitive sport.

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So just at a young age of having you know an audience watch you or to have to make a four-foot putt, and then you miss and you feel that letdown and you feel that stress, and then having to stand on a T in front of you know a hundred people and hit a shot, um, there's just there's there's just no halfing it, right?

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You have to execute the shot, and whether your hands are shaking and your knees are about to class, you have to do it.

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And in the business world, it's kind of the same, right?

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When you have um a group of investors that have a very big deal on the line and they need to find an operator to to pull the trigger on that, um you can't hide behind anything, right?

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You have to execute that, and it kind of brings me back to my my golfing days in in some capacity.

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Yeah, interesting.

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Uh, what do you think is the hardest club that most people struggle with?

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Club is in golf club.

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Uh-huh.

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Uh the putter, probably.

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Um, yeah, just because the again, the margin for error and the visibility of misses is easy to determine, right?

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Um, like if you were to ask me, Travis, what shot would you want to pull off in front of a hundred thousand people right now?

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It'd probably be a full swing eight-iron or full swing driver or something like that, just because the misses are a little bit easier to hide.

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Um, but I would not want to hit a four-foot putt in front of an audience um just because there's only two outcomes.

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You you make it or you miss it.

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Right, right, right.

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Well, I I love the way you you kind of describe, you know, you gave me a new view on on golf.

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One of the guys on our team, Scott, he he's a scratch golfer and and he you know he's really good at playing.

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He was uh you me, you and him are very similar in the way we think and and show up.

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Um I think people who are in the world of deal making have at least on this side of the coin, have uh a certain uh personality or a certain lean or bent or wiring, whatever you want to call it.

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Um when you're looking for talent for different roles, maybe within the PE group, maybe operator for a PE company, or maybe something else.

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Like where does personality or wiring or th these kind of things show up for you?

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Yeah.

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It's tricky, you know, because confidence can sometimes also um kind of hide the lack of skill set too, right?

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Um people often like being around people that are like them or make them feel good, right?

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And that's the charisma that you you want in a room, but you also don't want it to be so distracting that you can't figure out whether or not they're competent to actually execute the job behind the scenes, right?

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Um so so I think for for us where it shows up is it kind of goes back to some really simple measuring tactics we have when we're assessing talent, right?

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Um it's consistency, right?

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Um are they consistent with their storytelling?

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Are they consistent with how they show up with everyone?

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Are they just consistently impressive with you?

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But then when they meet your team, your team's like, you know, this is totally not the person you told us about.

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Um so there's a lot of different ways to measure consistency, right?

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There's a great recruiting um uh tactic called top grading.

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Uh, and it and it's uh there's a book on it that uh many people would have read um called top grading.

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And um that the whole format behind that is pretty much interviewing someone for a very long period of time asking almost the same question in many, many different ways.

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And it's exhausting for the person sitting on the other side of the table, and frankly, sometimes for everyone involved, um, but it has a science behind it, right?

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And it's how many inconsistencies can you kind of detect at, if any, and then double down on the whys, right?

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Um so I say that's where it shows up, but then it's also just showing up in the standpoint of showing up, right?

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Is the person that you're meeting taking that meeting as seriously as you would hope them to, right?

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Are they showing up in a collared shirt?

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Are they showing up on time?

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Are they looking at their watch 30 minutes in because they you feel that they have somewhere more important to be, right?

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And you know, I've assessed executive leaders monthly for 10 plus years now, and there's just a really great common denominator from people on how they show up and how they don't.

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And um some of the stuff is very simple, man.

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Like it's not complicated, but uh you'd be surprised at how many people can mess it up.

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Oh, for sure, man.

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Uh, this is so fun.

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I love having this conversation around around people.

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I love people.

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Now, just to admit something to you and to the audience, right?

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You talk about showing up.

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I've got a sports coat on, a white press collar shirt, but I'm I'm in the studio and I'm only recording and waist up.

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I'm wearing shorts and flip-flops.

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And I say this and I share this with you here and with the audience.

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But I think that sometimes people show up, like in the not their best, putting their best foot forward.

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Where they might be a great talent, they might have the skill sets, but for some reason they didn't show up fully dressed or fully present.

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How do you make sure that your initial gut instinct on someone or gut, you know, like when you see someone, you're like, ooh, how do you how do you change your mind later on?

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Because I'm sure we've all been wrong with the gun instinct of the first impression.

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Uh 100%.

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And and that's my point going back to you don't want that charisma to overtake the actual competency skills that you have to get to, right?

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Um the the first impression is a non-negotiable, because in my opinion, you only get one shot at a first impression, right?

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There's no second attempt at that.

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So if you mess that up, it's very hard to come back from that.

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And uh, you know, I'll give you a prime example.

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I had a breakfast meeting um, you know, earlier uh last week with with a prospect that we were looking at, and um I I just couldn't get over the the first two-minute show-up, the handshake, the lack of eye contact, the kind of awkwardness of walking in the room.

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I just it was on my mind the whole entire breakfast, and I couldn't get past it, right?

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So you have to be mindful that that first impression is so crucial.

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Now, that's almost unfair in some capacity because that individual could have been distracted, and that's just a a two-minute assessment based on a potential 10-year partnership that we're looking at, right?

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So you can't just base those, um, you can't base the the um the ultimate answer on that individual off of a poor handshake slash awkward first interaction.

00:14:56.799 --> 00:14:58.320
Um, but it's kind of important, right?

00:14:58.399 --> 00:15:08.000
Because if you think about if that person's gonna go out and represent your firm and that's how they greet a client, that could be a monstrous deal for the organization, and you're picking up on that, they probably will too, right?

00:15:08.159 --> 00:15:11.360
And um there's there's just some some little things that that go a long way.

00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:22.559
So to answer your question, one of my things that I really love doing, Josh, is and and it's taken me a long time to get there because I get excited when I meet people that are really great, is I go silent on them for a little bit.

00:15:22.720 --> 00:15:26.879
And I hate it, I hate to admit that, um, and then I just let my secret out a little bit.

00:15:27.039 --> 00:15:32.559
But um, and I'm talking about when I particularly look to bring on people from my own firm.

00:15:32.720 --> 00:15:41.679
Um and the reason I do that is in our line of business and consulting, you have to have a self-starter mindset, you have to be a mover and a shaker.

00:15:41.919 --> 00:15:44.720
Clients will not call you, you have to call clients.

00:15:44.879 --> 00:15:51.919
So if they're not calling me and they're not on top of me asking for an update, um that is just a really big red flag, right?

00:15:52.080 --> 00:15:56.879
And um it's tough because I give all the love in person and it's impossible for me to hold that back.

00:15:57.039 --> 00:16:02.799
And then when I leave, I'm like, oh my God, I want to text them first, I want to email them, I'm fired up about this, but then I just I I shut it down.

00:16:02.960 --> 00:16:14.320
And honestly, I've probably lost, I would say, five really great people this quarter who I was really excited about just because of the lack of enthusiasm I saw the week after or the second week after, right?

00:16:14.720 --> 00:16:30.320
Um, and uh and those are the little, you know, there's always a little few tricks that everyone has, but that's one of mine of how you kind of get beyond the enthusiasm that was shared in person and see if there's actually some some grip behind the the the fresh press t-shirt or the the collared shirt, right?

00:16:30.639 --> 00:16:39.200
Yeah, I I think I think that's great because uh that shows how they're gonna how they show up with you shows how they're gonna show up for the clients or the groups.

00:16:39.519 --> 00:16:50.320
Now there's in these kind of organizations, P family office, whatever there's there's people who interact with people all day long, especially if they're they're drivers of revenue, they're drivers of opportunity, they're sales.

00:16:50.960 --> 00:16:53.039
There's behind the scenes people, right?

00:16:53.279 --> 00:16:59.200
You have you know more maybe CFO or controllers or or operational driven.

00:16:59.759 --> 00:17:06.480
Like how how does your how does your search typically go in in terms of those different types of individuals?

00:17:06.720 --> 00:17:12.240
One might be Ford-facing, they need to be the rainmaker versus operationally driven.

00:17:13.119 --> 00:17:23.440
It's tough, you know, and the reason it's tough is because it it's hard to look past the fact that you want everyone to be consistent in terms of how they show up, right?

00:17:23.759 --> 00:17:35.440
And um we've we've hired roles from you know externally for our organizations, from CFOs to CEOs, to CROs to board members to marketing executives, I mean, you name it.

00:17:35.599 --> 00:17:44.960
And the reality is you sometimes have to get out of your own way, and we are our own worst own enemy sometimes of um, well, geez, that person's not the person I really would want to go out for a drink with.

00:17:45.039 --> 00:17:47.039
Um, but it's like, well, that doesn't actually matter, right?

00:17:47.119 --> 00:17:54.319
Their job is to do XYZ, which has no correlation with taking clients out for a drink or going out for dinner, right?

00:17:54.480 --> 00:17:58.400
And you really have to get into the weeds of what are they being hired to accomplish.

00:17:58.559 --> 00:18:04.319
And and frankly, that's probably the biggest hurdle in hiring is like where where do people make the biggest mistake?

00:18:04.480 --> 00:18:12.240
It's well, kind of measuring against the wrong criteria or setting up the wrong expectations of a job that they're not actually being hired to do, right?

00:18:12.400 --> 00:18:14.000
So um it is difficult.

00:18:14.240 --> 00:18:21.200
My answer to that, though, is to get candidates, get prospects in different environments throughout the interview process, right?

00:18:21.279 --> 00:18:25.759
Um, a boardroom's fine for a meet and greet, but I I really don't love boardroom meetings.

00:18:25.839 --> 00:18:30.799
I just find that the environment is a little bit stale, it's a little bit unnatural, it's not authentic.

00:18:30.960 --> 00:18:39.279
Um, go to a restaurant, go to a loud place where you're gonna see people interact with all sorts of different people and weird, chaotic environments, go for a walk.

00:18:39.440 --> 00:18:55.920
Um, and uh you just kind of get to see people in their natural habitat and you get to kind of poke holes in different things that will be relevant for what they're being hired for, but not in a scripted boardroom way where everyone's suited up and it's a quiet room and the clock's ticking, and you know, that that's not always the real life scenario.

00:18:56.160 --> 00:19:00.720
Yeah, I love that is is letting people see real life scenario observing.

00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:02.240
You observe a lot, right?

00:19:02.720 --> 00:19:14.400
Were you were you like that, you know, growing up in in in school where you were very observant of people and you were constantly measuring things and like in your in your brain like doing an analysis on individuals?

00:19:15.039 --> 00:19:20.319
Um on the people side, yes, but not so much like an analytical thinking brain by any means.

00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:23.839
Um but uh in terms of I was just always a people person.

00:19:24.079 --> 00:19:30.079
Um and I would say had like a good stomach pulse on on people, but articulating it not always perfect, right?

00:19:30.160 --> 00:19:36.880
Like it's sometimes hard to put words into how you feel, but um yeah, I would say there's always been some sort of uh consistent trend on that.

00:19:37.119 --> 00:19:37.519
Yeah.

00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:45.039
I'm going through a uh program with my church and it's identifying some things in my life that I need to improve upon, right?

00:19:45.200 --> 00:19:46.960
So I'm a people person too.

00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:50.319
With that, there's the the good, the bad, and the ugly side of it.

00:19:50.559 --> 00:20:05.119
The ugly side of being a people person is you can tend to be a people pleaser, or you can you know like hold on to someone for too long, or you can say yes to someone because you want to and you you you feel like you need to.

00:20:05.359 --> 00:20:12.480
So in your role where you have to say no probably 99% of the time to people, how do you overcome that?

00:20:12.640 --> 00:20:18.880
You said it was even hard for you to ghost them for a little bit, but that's a test of of seeing if they have what it takes to do the job.

00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:20.720
How do you balance that in your life?

00:20:20.799 --> 00:20:23.119
Or maybe you don't even struggle with that at all.

00:20:23.519 --> 00:20:23.839
Yeah.

00:20:24.160 --> 00:20:25.839
And to be clear, I don't ghost for too long.

00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:28.480
I mean, if they're following up, they're getting an answer because that's what I want to see.

00:20:28.799 --> 00:20:28.960
Yeah.

00:20:29.680 --> 00:20:30.799
But I won't chase, I won't chase them.

00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:31.839
I won't chase them.

00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:42.720
Um it's um you're you're you're completely correct when you assume that we say no far more than we say yes, just given the nature of what we do, right?

00:20:42.799 --> 00:20:50.640
So you have to give a lot more bad news than you have to give good news, which is by you know, I by by no uh measure the the best part of the job, right?

00:20:50.720 --> 00:20:52.000
Like that's just the reality.

00:20:52.160 --> 00:21:00.240
Um if there's something that you know I would kind of pull from this answer and be really direct on is how I approach those, which is be direct, right?

00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:01.279
Don't beat around the bush.

00:21:01.359 --> 00:21:04.160
No one likes the fuzzy answer of not getting the truth.

00:21:04.319 --> 00:21:09.440
Um when you have bad news to give, give it within the first 30 seconds of that meeting or that call.

00:21:09.599 --> 00:21:14.640
Don't wait 10 minutes after you're done talking about the kids, the dogs, the school, the the life, and the holiday, right?

00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:16.559
Um people don't like to be misled.

00:21:16.640 --> 00:21:19.440
And um I I just think transparency trumps all, right?

00:21:19.519 --> 00:21:23.599
So when you're able to kind of uh give it for how it's received, people appreciate it, right?

00:21:23.680 --> 00:21:27.119
And at the end of the day, you're not gonna be liked by everyone, right?

00:21:27.200 --> 00:21:29.920
Um whether you're in my job or your job, Josh, or any job.

00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:37.519
Um that's just kind of part of the that's part of the professional world, and um, you know, business leaders have to be comfortable, uh comfortable with that reality.

00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:39.119
Man, that's super good.

00:21:39.359 --> 00:21:50.400
What part of the uh team building, you know, building now the deal team, you know, you you just met with a PE group and they're like, hey, we've got this deal, it's super dependent on finding the right leadership.

00:21:50.480 --> 00:21:52.079
It's a it's a big buy.

00:21:52.240 --> 00:21:58.319
It you know, it's gonna be twenty million bucks, and we really need an operator to to run and gun this thing.

00:21:58.480 --> 00:21:59.759
We're looking at uh five to seven million.

00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:02.160
your window to to get in and get out.

00:22:02.319 --> 00:22:05.359
So we need that right person who could take this, grow this.

00:22:05.599 --> 00:22:09.519
Like in this process, what brings you the greatest joy?

00:22:09.599 --> 00:22:12.720
Like where what lights you on fire in that conversation?

00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:19.839
I think the immediate answer is just knowing that there's a deal dependent on you finding the person, right?

00:22:19.920 --> 00:22:20.799
I think that's the big deal.

00:22:20.880 --> 00:22:32.720
Because if you think of a conventional search, you know, if you have a Fortune 500 company call you and they need a vice president of sales or then you have a CFO Josh, that business is not changing its direction based on your search, right?

00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:39.359
I mean, of course you need to find somebody great that's going to be able to do the job, but they're still waking up Monday morning and turning the lights on at HQ, right?

00:22:39.519 --> 00:22:46.960
Versus this, we're either buying this business or we're not, depending on whether or not the person out there exists of who we want to bet on.

00:22:47.039 --> 00:22:49.039
That's a whole different betting game, right?

00:22:49.200 --> 00:22:52.240
So I think that is where the high stakes come in.

00:22:52.480 --> 00:22:54.559
And then it's the assessing the person, right?

00:22:54.640 --> 00:23:02.160
Like that's the other fun part is you now have a you now have a task to find someone who wants to sign up for that potential five to seven year journey.

00:23:02.240 --> 00:23:16.799
You want to make sure they can handle the stress of delivering on the mandate from the investors because it's very different running a business in that nature versus a privately held founder run business that is not changing the course of its growth trajectory over the next couple of years, right?

00:23:17.039 --> 00:23:18.000
Very different people.

00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:19.440
Can they stomach that?

00:23:19.519 --> 00:23:20.000
Can they not?

00:23:20.079 --> 00:23:24.079
And you have to kind of dig deep in finding ways of discovering if they can or not, right?

00:23:24.160 --> 00:23:25.200
And that's not easy to do.

00:23:25.279 --> 00:23:27.279
That goes back to consistency, right?

00:23:27.440 --> 00:23:36.400
Can you have three different meetings with them asking them different questions that are going to try and get to the same result of can they stomach what they're about to sign up for potentially in this deal.

00:23:36.720 --> 00:23:47.200
And then there's the oftentimes sometimes you know private equity investors or investors in general want to back an operator who wants to put their own capital in the deal right so not everyone's financially in a position to do that.

00:23:47.519 --> 00:23:53.359
So you're you're kind of measuring on all these different um categories that make it far more of a complex search.

00:23:53.680 --> 00:23:54.240
I love this.

00:23:54.400 --> 00:24:00.720
All right so let's just say we're going to that where they're looking for a strategic partner to come in with maybe even some skin in the game on themselves.

00:24:00.880 --> 00:24:02.160
How do you even approach that?

00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:11.599
Because you know you go to LinkedIn who's an investor here who's an active investor who's operate you know how do you how do you start to find those people without giving away the secret sauce?

00:24:12.079 --> 00:24:13.920
Yeah no I mean it it's tough.

00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:16.079
I I I almost wish there was a secret sauce.

00:24:16.160 --> 00:24:17.839
That's a complicated part of our industry.

00:24:18.319 --> 00:24:31.680
We haven't found the secret sauce um the the the thing that we have to approach that with if capital is involved which we've done those searches before that has to be topic number one of discussion because that is a make or break, right?

00:24:31.759 --> 00:24:44.720
I mean if you're looking for an operator that has to put in you know a million or a couple of million dollars of their own capital um that's either a yes or a no answer right so you got to kind of get to that before you get to any sort of time wasting assessment uh component.

00:24:45.200 --> 00:24:47.920
If the answer is yes potentially, okay, let's talk.

00:24:48.079 --> 00:24:57.440
If the answer is no I'm not in that current financial position to take a risk, we got to move on because that is uh probably something that will be contingent on whether or not the the deal goes forward.

00:24:57.599 --> 00:25:05.759
So I I think that's number one and that goes back to being direct, being consistent being um you know very much transparent in terms of what we're playing with here.

00:25:06.240 --> 00:25:07.200
So that that's number one.

00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:32.960
And then number two is just trying to figure out who they are right I mean if they do have the capital and they're willing to invest have they been in a growth oriented capital backed you know investor backed business before if the answer is no it's not that they can't do it but you got to dig a bit deeper right what kind of environments have you tolerate what's your you know what what's your how are you how are you raised right are you athletic?

00:25:33.039 --> 00:25:33.839
Are you a sports person?

00:25:34.079 --> 00:25:37.839
I mean what kind of competitive uh nature and environments have you been in before?

00:25:38.160 --> 00:25:54.559
Yeah super cool man I love this all right question off deal topic let's just say you had to get out of the you're in Canada so let's just say you're having a major blizzard and you and your family have to get out of the house and you can either grab your golf clubs or your guitar because your house is going to disappear.

00:25:54.880 --> 00:25:57.920
Which are you going to grab that guitar hanging on your wall or your golf clubs behind you?

00:25:58.240 --> 00:25:58.960
Oh golf clubs man.

00:25:59.039 --> 00:26:00.480
No that guitar is up there for art.

00:26:00.559 --> 00:26:08.160
You don't want to you'd rather play golf with me than jam with me that's that that's your that's your instrument is the the golf club.

00:26:08.720 --> 00:26:24.480
Now when we're talking with investors and they're they're looking at their you know they just raised some capital and uh or maybe even before they raise the capital what's a good time to start thinking about you know bringing in a group like yours Travis and you know looking at you know engaging with a a search?

00:26:26.400 --> 00:26:41.759
Sooner the better that we're involved in the conversation Josh I mean sometimes we're a part of that decision too right um I can't tell you how many times we've worked with you know P investors or or VC investors when there's not even a a conventional search that we're working on with them, right?

00:26:42.160 --> 00:26:45.039
You know, just last week I had a private equity firm call me from New York.

00:26:45.119 --> 00:27:02.960
They're looking to buy a business not too far from where where I am here in in Canada and it was very much just a kind of a brainstorming session on what they're looking at, how long they feel or how long I feel the the project would take potential names in the market and you know we've had two or three calls like that that are very casual, that are informal.

00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:08.480
So the earlier that you can kind of start brainstorming with folks like myself help you kind of gain that clarity.

00:27:09.279 --> 00:27:18.880
And you know it it kind of depends on if you're going into the deal where you are prepared to back the CEO and the operator, you have a little bit more time versus if you don't, right?

00:27:19.200 --> 00:27:23.440
Because if you cannot bet on the operator at hand, I mean that's got to be search number one.

00:27:24.400 --> 00:27:25.119
Earlier the better.

00:27:25.200 --> 00:27:26.799
I mean that's that's just the reality.

00:27:27.039 --> 00:27:27.680
Yeah.

00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:30.880
What do you think your superpower is Travis?

00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:51.200
Superpower oh boy um that's a tough one because I don't know if I have a superpower Josh if I had a little bit of a skill set to rely back on I think it would be um you know setting expectations right I I think expectation management is a very important skill set in business.

00:27:51.759 --> 00:27:58.960
People that mislead people have a very difficult time in our industry because we are in the people business, right?

00:27:59.119 --> 00:28:13.519
Our product is people, our clients are people our people are people so like there's a lot of people around for us to make a deal and what makes really good deal makers in our world versus not are people that cannot set expectations properly.

00:28:14.160 --> 00:28:24.000
And I think that's and that comes with again consistency being direct being showing up um being professional but um not misleading and and just kind of making sure the tone's set for everyone.

00:28:24.960 --> 00:28:31.119
When it comes to you know people let's just say they they have everything it takes on on paper they're awesome.

00:28:31.839 --> 00:28:32.160
Right?

00:28:32.480 --> 00:28:44.079
Where do you think they sabotage not intentionally opportunities over and over and you're like hey guys if you made this small tweak you probably would find a lot more opportunities in your life.

00:28:44.640 --> 00:29:57.359
Yeah for the candidate that's looking yeah yeah um paper I I would say is almost uh being good on paper is okay Josh but I mean network and reputation is kind of what gets you advanced in your career right and and I don't know how many times we've seen people get hired into jobs or take a company to somewhere that we never imagined and you look at their profile be like geez I don't know if I would have bet on that person right um and it's kind of a you know it's a fact to wake up a little bit because the logo on the piece of paper the the school and the education doesn't necessarily dictate the uh the final result of of someone's career right so I think um you can have all that on paper which is important but my uh suggestion would be get out of the house go shake hands go network be around people that you want to be like or be around I mean we all know the famous story I mean you're the you're the average of the five people that you hang around and man that that couldn't be so so true right um so go to places where you know they are and network and allow people to to truly meet you because uh you know you and I are doing this virtually which is uh which is good and it's convenient but um it'd be a whole lot better if we were in the same studio right now right and and people gotta you know expand their networks as much as possible.

00:29:57.759 --> 00:30:02.799
We have a studio in Lafayette Louisiana and in Florida come hang out with us sometime.

00:30:03.039 --> 00:30:10.160
We would love to I would love to hang out with you more because then I would up my skill level you would you would bring up my average for sure.

00:30:11.440 --> 00:30:38.799
Let's go to you know where do you see your your business going Travis as you as you've launched you've done a spin-off and you're you're building you've you've hit some really great uh milestones in terms of team and revenue like where's your future going yeah you know we we've got a great team and I I think that's the the thing I've been luckiest for in this journey to be honest Josh without a good team it's very difficult to build a business in our industry.

00:30:39.440 --> 00:30:43.440
So want to keep attracting A players so that team can just get stronger.

00:30:44.079 --> 00:31:00.400
We are you know very much an executive search firm today in terms of where our entire revenue sits um you know over the next few months there will be some moves that uh you know that we'll be announcing that kind of breaks us beyond the executive search realm and uh starts capturing more of the broader human capital services market.

00:31:00.559 --> 00:31:06.880
So you know if you were to ask me in a few years kind of what does Tender and how look like it's probably a full service human capital firm for the mid market.

00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:46.559
So um you know very much born as an executive search firm but there will be some moves in the next uh little while that allows us to um you know break out beyond that still servicing that human capital department within our client so there's a consistency there um but it'll be a bit more of a diverse service offering yeah cool man when you're evaluating a deal this is a a question that you you and your team uh inserted on the on the intake is uh when you're evaluating a deal and this could be you know let's just say a PE group's bringing you in to a to analyze a deal and and you're taking a look at the deal how much weight should you put on the deal itself versus team you know like how do you how do you go about measuring that out?

00:31:47.119 --> 00:32:04.559
Yeah I I have a a a personal take on this I mean that's very much on the on the deal team within the PE firm but um you know if I were to answer from a standpoint of what when do you back the team versus when do you back the the business or the product um I I think it depends on the business of what it is, right?

00:32:04.720 --> 00:32:24.799
So if you're in a very healthy cash flow oriented product driven business, in my opinion, you can bet on the product and the business there and we'll figure the team piece out because that product might have some sort of proprietary technology it might have a patent it might have something that you can build a team around no matter what that's my take.

00:32:25.200 --> 00:32:31.119
If it is a growth oriented services based business like ours for example you've got to bet on the team.

00:32:31.279 --> 00:32:59.519
The team is 90% of the deal right and it depends at what phase right you can grow these organizations these professional services businesses to a point where the systems are well-oiled machines and there's methodologies and there's predictable way of how clients come into the business they're not just relying on two relationships um but in a growth oriented younger professional services firm the team is the deal um so I I think it really depends on what side they uh they sit on there.

00:32:59.839 --> 00:33:18.000
Yeah absolutely the the world of AI is disrupting all sorts of industries now when it comes to yours someone who might have had a really crappy resume because of maybe they've had a a body work history or maybe they blow up a bunch of stuff and maybe they're toxic.

00:33:18.559 --> 00:33:25.920
But with the use of AI they can have the best looking resume with all the keywords and all the things and all the tricks and all that whatever.

00:33:26.319 --> 00:33:35.519
How do you how do you scoop past that and identify does the does the talent match the paper?

00:33:36.240 --> 00:33:36.799
Yeah.

00:33:38.400 --> 00:33:43.759
Paper is such a small component of how I think about assessing talent um today, right?

00:33:43.839 --> 00:33:52.240
And I think that's the biggest you know whether you're looking at real estate and you're hiring an agent that is going to sell your house for top dollar or you try selling it yourself.

00:33:52.400 --> 00:33:57.359
I mean in our world people try and make the hire themselves versus investing in a firm to do it for them, right?

00:33:57.599 --> 00:33:58.720
And that that's fine.

00:33:58.799 --> 00:34:03.279
I mean that's going to be the reality of of how people you know look at uh investing in us or not.

00:34:03.920 --> 00:34:19.039
My take on that though is this is what we do day in, day out and we have a little bit of a secret kind of sauce behind the scenes I guess you know if we can call it that Josh where how we assess talent is probably quite different than someone that does not do it for a daily living, right?

00:34:19.519 --> 00:34:27.360
Paper to me is just a way of kind of telling me where they've been a little bit um it does not tell you really what they've done, what they've accomplished, what they've faced.

00:34:27.840 --> 00:34:38.239
It's a non-negotiable for us if I think about how we hire for our firm, we'll never hire someone unless we sit down and have lunch with them, have a coffee with them, have some sort of social interaction beyond a call like this.

00:34:38.880 --> 00:34:47.760
And probably a couple times quite frankly and probably a couple times with different people because we want to compare the consistencies of how they act with different people with different titles and in different environments.

00:34:48.239 --> 00:34:59.760
So you really got to dig deep but you also have to have this special skill where you socially are able to break the walls down of someone right to make them feel very comfortable.

00:34:59.840 --> 00:35:02.000
And I have a client that does this incredibly well.

00:35:02.400 --> 00:35:05.679
Everyone leaves feeling like man I'm that guy's best friend.

00:35:05.760 --> 00:35:08.880
And in some ways you probably are because he is that type of person.

00:35:09.360 --> 00:35:28.719
But I also know because I'm his talent partner that it's a little bit of a trick for him where he wants people to be as comfortable as possible when he's interviewing them because he wants to actually figure out who they are right and some people let their guard down way too quickly way too aggressively and that's a bit of a red flag right because clients can also be that for them in six months if they hire them.

00:35:29.119 --> 00:35:45.119
And other people you know don't ever let their guard down but that's also like a I really want to get to know you are you too scripted right um so there's a little bit of a skill set when you do it for a living where you're able to get people talking a little bit more freely than they ever even anticipated in that meeting right?

00:35:45.360 --> 00:35:45.760
Yeah.

00:35:45.920 --> 00:35:46.880
No that's brilliant.

00:35:47.119 --> 00:35:48.320
And that breaks down the paper.

00:35:48.400 --> 00:35:52.239
I mean you could be as great on paper as possible but that's why you have to be in front of them.

00:35:52.480 --> 00:35:53.440
Yeah no that's good.

00:35:53.519 --> 00:36:05.199
Now what what do you do if they're like virtual you're in Canada I'm in Florida let's just say you guys were looking to to hire me for a peat group I first of all don't put me in anything operations or clock in clock out.

00:36:05.440 --> 00:36:06.800
I'm just not gonna do well there.

00:36:07.039 --> 00:36:09.039
But like you know like I'm in I'm in Florida.

00:36:09.119 --> 00:36:15.760
We've spent you know multiple times on on a you know zoom together but like how would how would you how would you approach that?

00:36:16.880 --> 00:36:24.559
It it depends on the seniority uh for sure right if we're talking about a CEO and an operator I mean probably we'll probably still make it happen in person.

00:36:24.639 --> 00:36:37.519
I mean we've done that a handful of times before I think of uh a publicly traded company that we recruited the new CEO in for I mean there was two in-persons despite the person being in uh you know I think they were in San Diego and my business partner was in Western Canada.

00:36:37.679 --> 00:36:45.119
So um that that still happened twice in person because it's just a big enough deal that you you really want to put eyes and shake a hand and really get to know somebody.

00:36:45.679 --> 00:36:57.119
But the reality is Josh even if we're not the ones that are doing the in-person we probably have done three to four, three to five some sort of virtual interaction um but the client is probably still doing the in-person, right?

00:36:57.280 --> 00:37:01.440
Somebody is doing the in-person for a search of of that caliber.

00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:20.639
And if it had to be all virtual, which we do um on our side but the clients will still meet them um you know there's also trying to figure out the consistencies of okay we're gonna meet virtually we're gonna have email exchanges we're gonna have text exchanges we're gonna call you a few times and catch you off guard because we need to book something in the calendar and those are the most telling moments.

00:37:20.800 --> 00:37:35.199
So um when we sit in front of a client one of the questions that we're often asked is you know how do you compare against one of the large firms and um our our our sales tactic or our our tactic and how we differentiate ourselves is who you get in the pitch is who you get on the search.

00:37:35.280 --> 00:37:47.199
And why that's so important for us is that um those little interactions when you're calling and when you're texting well many big firms it might be a receptionist or it might be an analyst for us those are the telling moments of are they responsive?

00:37:47.360 --> 00:37:48.239
How do they react?

00:37:48.639 --> 00:37:52.880
When you do catch them off guard um are they all flustered or are they cool with it?

00:37:53.039 --> 00:38:21.440
Are they delegating every single interaction that you have to somebody else on their team because they won't give you the two minutes like those little pieces tell you one how bad they want it but two how they're going to show up for your clients if they get hired right yeah absolutely I'm fascinated with the way your brain works do you um I don't know what if you have free time but like if you look at the past maybe five ten years like what shows what TV shows or movies like really stood up to you and really interested you like and you dug into them.

00:38:21.920 --> 00:38:56.880
Oh gosh um my wife would laugh if you asked me that answer if she heard you ask me that answer because I'm so bad at remembering all the shows and movies that we watch um probably uh I mean there there's a couple uh Lincoln lawyer I I've loved the Lincoln lawyer I I think uh um how his brain works in that show is actually also uh really great um and the show that you know I watched just years ago was was Suits which just kind of gives you um a very fascinating way of um how they do deals or how they kind of approach situations right it's very kind of unconventional as well and I think um I think both those shows are pretty solid.

00:38:57.280 --> 00:38:59.519
Who were you more like in the in the show Suits?

00:38:59.679 --> 00:39:02.239
Were you like Mike or who who were you like more?

00:39:02.719 --> 00:39:05.440
Oh man I don't know I I don't know if I can answer that.

00:39:06.159 --> 00:39:11.920
Who would your wife say you're more like probably Mike in some capacity whether that's good or bad.

00:39:12.159 --> 00:39:26.159
Yeah yeah yeah yeah all right um as you're man I like this I know I know that we got to wrap up today and I'm I'm sure that you know you have uh I have more questions asked you but we'll we'll just have to do that at another time.

00:39:26.400 --> 00:39:29.599
Um where can people go to find you and connect with you?

00:39:29.679 --> 00:39:34.400
Do you guys have uh you know podcasts or YouTube or did they find you on LinkedIn?

00:39:34.960 --> 00:39:40.159
Yeah LinkedIn is where we live so um my name is Travis Han and you'll find me on LinkedIn there.

00:39:40.239 --> 00:39:50.320
I'm very active um and our company website is penderhow with an e dot com um and that is where uh you'll find all information about our company and me and uh how we can kind of interact.

00:39:50.559 --> 00:40:21.039
Yeah super cool what question should I have asked you that you're like Josh I can't believe you forgot that one question that I completely screwed up and didn't ask you oh I I I think uh I think the one Josh um that stands out today just for for me in in terms of what we're dealing with is you know how CEOs and operators look different today than what they looked like five ten years ago right because I think we're just seeing that every day in our work about how um how people are different and and how the expectations are quite different of what they used to have to do.

00:40:21.119 --> 00:40:22.400
So I I think probably that one.

00:40:22.639 --> 00:40:23.920
All right go for it man.

00:40:24.320 --> 00:40:35.760
Well I I you know the the reality is I mean you touched on that a little bit right I mean there there's AI disruption that's moving at at God speed um that that CEOs today have to be comfortable with that um you know kind of volatility.

00:40:36.239 --> 00:40:49.199
There's the remote hybrid work that kind of everyone got slapped with in 2020 that just had to have them figure out how to lead a team and how to rally people together and how to manage a team that might not all be in the same office because it's it's a whole different ballgame.

00:40:50.000 --> 00:40:58.880
And as you know you and I are sitting in two different countries but there's just so much uncertainty right with geopolitical tensions right now and um the macro environments, et cetera.

00:40:58.960 --> 00:41:08.559
So you you you know you kind of mix all those few things together and CEOs have to have a little bit of a different toolkit than than what they needed five plus years ago.

00:41:08.719 --> 00:41:55.360
And not to mention I mean you're in the the media game and you get it but I mean how many CEOs have we seen in the last gosh call it six months almost that have had um themselves you know in some deep trouble just from their them being in the spotlight at the wrong time forgetting that they're the representation of the company right 10 years ago there was a very different line of you know they only got graded in the boardroom they didn't get graded in their private life and today there's almost no separation of that right um and and you know I don't need to bring up the the situations we all kind of have seen them on the news and stuff but I I think there's just a real um particular like kind of PR twist of being a CEO these days as well that's uh you know a a lot of great CEOs are just super mindful of these days because it it takes a very short few seconds to get your company in some hot water.

00:41:55.679 --> 00:41:56.239
For sure.

00:41:56.719 --> 00:42:05.199
I think that goes a lot with transparency, authenticity those are you know good keywords to drop but also like integrity and character, right?

00:42:05.360 --> 00:42:12.000
Like how you show up in your life, how you show up outside of the boardroom or office, how you treat people.

00:42:12.480 --> 00:42:25.920
One of our favorite things to do is like when when you're having you take someone out to lunch and you see how they treat the you know the the waiter how they how they place their order how they you know how they handle themselves with people you introduce them to.

00:42:28.079 --> 00:42:37.760
Man at the end of the day all we have is people in relationships right so like businesses will come and go but like those those kind of interactions I think uh really set people apart.

00:42:40.239 --> 00:42:46.960
You're a fantastic guest and I loved uh our conversation what we'll do is we'll put your contact information in the show notes.

00:42:47.599 --> 00:42:52.239
Now I'm speaking to the audience guys I I always want to encourage you to reach out to the guests and say thank you.

00:42:52.400 --> 00:42:55.199
Thank you for sharing your time your wisdom your experiences here.

00:42:55.519 --> 00:43:14.159
If you're maybe looking for an opportunity in the world of you know PE back businesses or maybe you're a PE group venture capital group family offices and you need to make some strategic hires I encourage you to reach out to Travis and his team get that conversation going and um man would love to see you guys have some connection there.

00:43:14.559 --> 00:43:27.679
Now if you are a a group a PE group family office and you and you'd like to hear have a conversation here on the show, head over to the Deal Podcast, fill out a quick form and maybe we'll get uh you on the show, talk about you and your portfolio until then we'll talk to you all on the next episode.

00:43:28.400 --> 00:43:28.880
Cheers everyone

No Operator, No Deal — How PE Firms Find the Right CEO with Travis Hann

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